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Angel Wood
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2004, 09:46:43 pm »
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Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm   

I said I wasn't going to write much more, didn't I?    And yet, here I am. 
I can't take the time to respond to everything you said, Frankie, but I will respond to a couple of things.

As part of the "pro-life crowd,"  you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus.  I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies."  Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant.  What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not.  If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me.  But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.

As far as the scenarios you mentioned (girl thinking someone is "the right one," girl being pressured by boyfriend, young husband leaving wife etc), you are right.  In the real world, those things are gonig to happen.  I know people make mistakes, bad decision and are abandoned by their boyfriend/husband.  But, in spite of all that, I STILL stand by my pro-life convictions.  I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible.  What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old?  Is it right to take the child's life at that point.  I personally, don't see a difference.

One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem.  If everyone "esteemed others more than themselves" no boyfriend would ever pressure a girlfriend into having sex.  If everyone put relationships over material things (which is very Biblical) then having "things" would be less important than waiting for the "perfect" time to have a child (I am talking about unplanned pregnancies in a marriage).  If everyone waited until marraige to have sex, then 90% of abortions would not even be an issue.  If everyone believed "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," then young husbands would not selfishly decide they were not ready for a family but would stick with their wife and unborn child.  I will shut up now but I could go on and on with more examples.  Like I said, I know this will never happen, but I am only saying that if everyone followed the Bible's teachings, the world would be a much better place.  Imagine how wonderful our world would be if everyone loved as Jesus loves. 

I have so much more I want to say but I need to go work on some math with my son.  I need to make sure I am not so busy advocating for other people's unborn children that I neglect the five living under my roof. 

I agree with Rose's position. She has already explained these matters from a Christian perspective far better than I possibly can.


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Abortion is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly. I don't think there are many people who disagree with that. The question is: Is it ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion?

Yes, that's very true, Miriel... abortion IS a very serious matter... and my answer would have to be yes... it is ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion though like what Rose has said before, I do not and will not judge those who have had or choose to have an abortion.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2004, 10:51:01 pm »
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Hi Blue Angel!  It was so nice to come here and read your post.  You are a blessing in my life.

Meriel, I read your post three or four hours ago but had other pressing matters to attend to so I could not respond then.  I did make one small post, which I regretted and later deleted. 

I have to admit, Meriel, that I really, really struggled as to whether or not to respond to your post.  When I "debated" Frankie, Willikins, Fiona and others on this thread it felt like a "friendly debate."  I felt like, for the most part, everyone stuck to the issue and didn't get personal. When I would finish reading their posts, I would think something like, "Hmmm, very interesting points.  What do I believe about these things? and then I would respond.

For some reason, after I read your post, I felt like I had been personally attacked.  Perhaps I am being overly sensitive, and if so, I am sorry.  I really don't want to stick in a debate where things get "ugly." Not because I am afraid to stand up for what I belive, I think I have proven otherwise, but because I am afraid I will say something I reget later. 

I really can't put my finger on exactly why I felt personally attacked...so maybe I am over reacting. 

But...I decided I will continue in the debate, at least for awhile. 


Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   



Personally, I am not very inclined to suggest abortion as a solution to any kind of problem. But be honest: Do you know what it feels like to be the pregnant raped girl? Can you solemnly swear that you will NEVER EVER think that abortion was justifiable? Do you honestly think that you have the right to judge and make the decision for others?


Do I have a right to judge others?  No. (And I think if you read my posts carefully, you will see that I don't.)  Do I have a right to make a decision for others?  No. Do I have the right to believe abortion is murder? Yes


Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   



Some other remarks:
The fundamentalist Christians are (as to be expected) the most extreme and convinced in their opinion. I am a Christian too and well aware of what the Bible says. In this thread as well as in others I stumble across things that bother me.


I feel like "bashing" conservative Christians (or fundamentalist, if you prefer the word) is the favorite passtime of a lot of people these days (not all, of course).  I wonder one thing though,  why is it okay to be "extreme" in other areas, such as an extreme environmentalist or an extreme women's rights person, or an extreme pro-choice person but it is not okay to be extreme when it comes to one's beliefs about God and the Bible?  Conservative Christians are not hurting anyone or forcing anything on anyone. (Yes, we might push for things to go our way politically, but doesn't everyone who has a strong belief about something?)  Do we not have as much "right" to our belief and opinion as anyone else?




Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   


Could people perhaps try to see their opinion as their OPINION and see it separate from the 'frame' of the discussion? Though it might be the right conviction, realise that many people don't share that conviction. if that happens you can refrase your question or arguments without having a different opion but also without allready judgeing others.

Also: the difference people se between killing a four-year-old and having an abortion is that not everyone thinks of a fetus as a human life yet. If you start out with the given: a fetus is a child and a live, there is no difference. If You start out with the given: a fetus isn't a human being yet, the first case is murder, the second case not. That makes it easy? That makes it allways right? no. But if this is your conviction that means it isn't murder



To me, killing an unborn child (baby, fetus, what ever word you prefer) is murder.  I make no apology for this belief.  Do I judge and condemn women that have abortions?  No! I have already said that on more than one occasion.  Do I sympathize greatly with what they are going through to have come to such a decision?  Yes.  I have friends and loved ones who have had abortions. I don't think less of them. I don't hate them.  I love many of them.  But, I feel great sadness over the death of their baby.

But, just as those of you who are pro-choice (if you prefer I use this term over pro-abortion, I would be glad to) refer to the baby as a "parasite" and a fetus and say it isn't living, I believe just as strongly that the baby is a human life and is living. (if you want to use the word "fetus" that is fine, I use the word "baby"...we both know to what we are refering).   


Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   


On the side: I surely hope people won't live their life literally by the Bibles teachings. It would imply a lot of very womenunfriendly laws and traditions. Of course these Bibletexts are not what you had in mind when you talk about living by the Bibles teachings, but that's my point. Everybody has a different defenition of 'living by the Bibles teachings' As someone who sees the Bible as a cultural, historical document that contains the word of God, but in symbolism and metaphors, I keep finding it hard to determine what more orthodox people take literally and what not. Homosexuality is a sin, but long hair doesn't mean you're a wh*re anymore. I cannot see any logic in it. I suspect people take literally what suits them and not literally what doesn't suit them. In my case I would speak of an ideal world or a world without evil, paradise even, there abortion and rape would not exist.



I am not going to respond to this because it would lead the debate off the topic of abortion and on to the topic of Biblical interpretation.  If anyone ones my thoughts on this (and I know people aren't lining up to get my thoughts and opinions  ), please PM me.


Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   


My older sister has down-syndrome and was also born with a heartcondition. I know all the pro's and cons on this matter, it doesn't make it any easier.

If I was pregnant and knew the child would have downsyndrome I would have it. Absolutely, no question. My sister had a serious heartcondition. Noone expected her to live very long. For nine long years she has suffered horribly. For my parents it was almost unbearable to see her suffer like this in the knowledge she would die in the end. My mother told me that at some points my parents asked theirselves what they were putting her through and if they could justify keeping her alive. Without the extensive medical care, she would have died almost immediately. Was it right that they kept her alive? At the age of nine, my sister underwent a very risky surgery. The chance she would survive was 20 percent. My parents decided on the surgery anyway, for without the surgery she would die as well. My sister was one of the first to survive the operation and the aftermath. She is now a happy 25-year-old with down-syndrome and I honestly believe she is a great contribution to this world.


This was such a sweet, touching, beautiful story about your older sister. Thank you for sharing such a personal thing with us.  I am sure she is a blessing in the lives of you and your family.


Quote from: Míriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm   

(ps:Also think advocating no pre-marital sex is not going to get the teenage pregnancyrates any lower. More tuition on safe sex would. )
(pps: I don't think there is anything wrong with pre-marital sex either)

I do not agree that more classes on safe sex would lower teenage pregnancies.  In the last 20 years there have been more classes on safe-sex AND more teenage pregnancies.  The only sure way to prevent pregnancies is to not have sex.  Yes, I know this is unrealistic in today's world but it CAN be done.  I know many, many teenagers and young adults who are remaining virgins.  Yes, it is hard, but not impossible.  But, I am realistic enough to know that every teenager and unmarried adult is going to abstain from sex.  However, ideally, absentance, not safe sex-classes, are the answer.

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2004, 11:53:03 pm »
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Hmm.

I feel like we're kind of going around in circles, so I'm just going to address the bit about celibacy.

Yes, celibacy is possible.  But with the way society works now, especialy in America, it just isn't something that's very likely, which I know most of you have already conceded to be true (that it's not very likely to change, I mean).  I would like to say something as someone who waited until they were truly "ready" to have sex: I don't regret it.  My first sexual experience was painful.  I am glad that I have gotten it over and done with.  It was not a good experience because it involved my body adjusting: whether or not I share that experience with someone I will love forever or someone I love right then, it's still a painful experience.  For me, the sex is more special once you've gotten some experience.  I mean, yes, it is special to save yourself for that person, but with the high divorce rates in the US (where I live), that doesn't really mean much, to save yourself for your husband or wife, because it could all be over in a year or three.  This is just opening a whole different subject and yes, it could be "solved" if we all followed the bible, but that would be taking away the freedoms we have.  I don't think forcing marriage onto a couple is the right thing to do in response to them wanting to have sex with each other.

Also, just as my own personal what have you: sex makes people happy.  It's been proven and as a person who has had sex, I can tell you that that has been my experience every time.  Celibacy might be possible, but it's also pretty depressing.  People here are usually sad if they have to go for ___ weeks/months/years without sex.  I would hate for someone to tell me "if you're not getting married, it's no more sex for you!"  Because marriage is a commitment and sometimes you just want to be able to explore without the whole idea of whether what you're about to do (not just sex, but any intimacy, from talking to cuddling or whatever) is going to lead to a ring on your finger.  That's way too much pressure in my opinion.

I like sex.  I try to be safe.  It makes me happy so I don't think it's all bad.  Not EVERYONE gets pregnant.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2004, 12:36:55 pm »
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I will write quick message now. I'm really very busy at the moment, but there are some things I would like to say before days have gone by. This post is maily for Rose but also for everyone here.

My post was not at all meant as a personal attack on Rose or anyone here. In fact, I am not at all the one to make posts that can cause people to be upset or leave the suggestion that I am not debating but personally attacking.

I can understand that you felt attacked though, Rose. I don't dislike you and I surely respect your believes. What bothered me is not at all what peoples opinions are, but the way of debating. It is something that has been bothering me for a very long time. I feel that there is no separation of opinion and and discussion. I find it difficult to express what I mean in another language, so I hope you understand what I mean a bit...

My post was pretty sharp and I am not surprised that people aren't too happy with what I said. Maybe if I say now what I didn't want to actually say before, it becomes clear why I was so sharp. Though know none of you means to insult insult anyone, I sometimes feel the way you voice your opinions is somewhat condescending. I no it is not meant that way, but some thing come across as such. I will adress all this later and more elaborate, as I really don't have the time at the moment, but I wanted to let people know I'm not trying to attack people or on a mission to 'diss' christians.

Back later,

Mír
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2004, 02:00:17 pm »
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Quote from: Míriel on November 24, 2004, 12:36:55 pm   

I will write quick message now. I'm really very busy at the moment, but there are some things I would like to say before days have gone by. This post is maily for Rose but also for everyone here.

My post was not at all meant as a personal attack on Rose or anyone here. In fact, I am not at all the one to make posts that can cause people to be upset or leave the suggestion that I am not debating but personally attacking.

I can understand that you felt attacked though, Rose. I don't dislike you and I surely respect your believes. What bothered me is not at all what peoples opinions are, but the way of debating. It is something that has been bothering me for a very long time. I feel that there is no separation of opinion and and discussion. I find it difficult to express what I mean in another language, so I hope you understand what I mean a bit...

My post was pretty sharp and I am not surprised that people aren't too happy with what I said. Maybe if I say now what I didn't want to actually say before, it becomes clear why I was so sharp. Though know none of you means to insult insult anyone, I sometimes feel the way you voice your opinions is somewhat condescending. I no it is not meant that way, but some thing come across as such. I will adress all this later and more elaborate, as I really don't have the time at the moment, but I wanted to let people know I'm not trying to attack people or on a mission to 'diss' christians.

Back later,

Mír

Like Mir, I only have a few minutes.  I want to address your post on celebacy, Willinkins, and to your post, Rai, and a couple of other things (unfortunately, I probabably won't have time to get to them until Friday, and by then, wo knows where this discussion will have gone. 

However, I do want to post a resonse to Miriel's post.  I am very sorry if I have ever appeared condesending.  In no way do I feel "superior" to any of you (actually, I feel very inadequate, compared to many of you).  I sincerely apologize if I have come across in a condesending or rude manner. 

As I reread your first post, I realized that I did over react and was overly sensitive.  You didn't come across THAT sharp.    You came across very strong but not mean.  I apologize for "getting my feelings hurt" so easily.  My only excuse is that I was very tired and upset about something else yesterday,  but I know that is no excuse, since our emotions should not control how we treat others. I am also rather sensitive when conservative Christians are criticised for reason I mentioned in my post, but I know that is not really an excuse either.

I do believe, though, that it is impossible to seperate our opinion from a discussion.  We all arrive at our beliefs based on our opinions or worldview.  Those of you who are pro-choice debate from the point of few that a "fetus" is not a life.  Those of us who are pro-life, debate from the point of view that a "baby" is a life. Those are "opinions" and really the whole base of the debate.  I just  don't see how we can avoid expressing our opinion in a debate.  I am sorry if I don't understand what you are trying to say. 

Well, like I said, my time is short.  Hope all of you have a good day. "Talk" to you later.

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2004, 02:15:43 pm »
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Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm   

As part of the "pro-life crowd,"  you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus.  I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies."  Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant.  What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not.  If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me.  But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.
It's up to you what you call your child/baby/fetus. I'm sure you will still call your children your babies once they're adults, right? I know my mother does and I'm hardly a baby anymore. We might call it a baby (it sounds more loving, anyway), but it's still at a different developmental stage than a baby.

I have another question though. What's a life? Isn't it necessary to be able to breathe etc. to have a life?
Does life really start at conception? Is that a fact?  Taking somebody's life is considered murder. Abortion isn't. This is what people have discussed in lengths, what is life really, and when does it start? If they had come to the conclusion that it starts at conception I don't think there would be so many countries that allow abortions.
If you choose to reply to this, please try to take a critical (or biological) look at this. Try to leave out your personal experience and your faith in the Bible, as hard as it may seem.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm   

I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible.  What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old?  Is it right to take the child's life at that point.  I personally, don't see a difference.
Because of that "what if" many girls decide to abort when they're still young and cannot afford to have a child on their own yet.
No it's not right to kill a four-year-old. That's murder of a child who is already born, already able to feel, hear, see, well ... live.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm   

One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem.
I will not even go there *smiles*
I just wanna say that this is a world of many religions and faiths, instead of trying to move backwards to biblical times and pushing our personal faith on others we should try to live  and let live even if we don't agree with it.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 10:51:01 pm   
I feel like "bashing" conservative Christians (or fundamentalist, if you prefer the word) is the favorite passtime of a lot of people these days (not all, of course).  I wonder one thing though,  why is it okay to be "extreme" in other areas, such as an extreme environmentalist or an extreme women's rights person, or an extreme pro-choice person but it is not okay to be extreme when it comes to one's beliefs about God and the Bible?  Conservative Christians are not hurting anyone or forcing anything on anyone.
I'm sure environmentalists, feminists, and abortion clinics have to take some bashing as well. Wasn't there an abortion doctor who was murdered? Anyway, extreme environmentalists' work is based on facts. It would be different if they just believed the environment was harmed. Feminists' work is also based on facts, they don't just believe women are suppressed, they can show you statistics to prove it. But saying they're not bashed as well, is wrong, imo. Maybe you just feel that way, because you are a Christian.
The environment is affecting everyone on this planet no matter what they believe in. You cannot say the same about religion and prove it.  What if all Christians are wrong and the Buddhists are right? 


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 10:51:01 pm   
(Yes, we might push for things to go our way politically, but doesn't everyone who has a strong belief about something?)  Do we not have as much "right" to our belief and opinion as anyone else?
This is a very important issue you're raising. You're letting religion influence politics. This is what bothers me most and what is causing all the bashing. I couldn't care less whether people believed they may not eat fish because it's a sin or something, as long as they will let others eat fish.
I personally prefer to live in an environment where I can make decisions that are not based on other people's beliefs. I don't like to let religion dictate my life in certain ways. Just because some BELIEVE it is the right thing to do, doesn't mean others feel the same way about it.
I think on important topics like abortion we should let experts decide whether a fetus is an individual, whether it can be considered murder to abort something that doesn't even live yet, or whether life really starts at conception.
For the well-being of a whole society we will have to put science over belief, you can still make your own choices, though, however you please.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 10:51:01 pm   

I do not agree that more classes on safe sex would lower teenage pregnancies.  In the last 20 years there have been more classes on safe-sex AND more teenage pregnancies.  The only sure way to prevent pregnancies is to not have sex.  Yes, I know this is unrealistic in today's world but it CAN be done.  I know many, many teenagers and young adults who are remaining virgins.
Okay, I have tried to find some statistics:

Rates of Teenage Childbearing in the U.S. Are the Highest in the Developed World
The U.S. teenage birth rate is the highest in the developed world: twice as high as England's, three times as high as Australia's, four times as high as Germany's, six times as high as France's, eight times as high as the Netherlands', and 15 times as high as Japan's (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998; Berne & Huberman, 1999).

Reasons for the lower rates of teenage childbearing in these countries include mandatory, medically accurate sexuality education programs that provide comprehensive information and encourage teens to make responsible choices easy access to contraception and other forms of reproductive health care, including abortion social acceptance of adolescent sexual expression as normal and healthy straightforward public health media campaigns government support for the right of teens to accurate information and confidential services (Berne & Huberman, 1999)

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/TEEN-PREGNANCY/teenpreg_fact.html
This is from the late 90's, hope things have changed for the better.
I've raised this earlier but it's been ignored. My real point is that in Europe very few people go to church, even less would wait with sex until they're married. So, over here we do have lots of sexually active teenagers, but still our pregnancy rates are much lower. Why? 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2004, 03:29:24 pm »
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Just wanted to let you all know that iIam bowing out of this discussion.  It has been interesting and it has been fun (for the most part) but, after thinking about it awhile, I have decided not to continue.  I just wanted to let you know that I won't be back so you won't be left wondering where I am (I am sure you will "see" me on other threads. 

The reasons I am leaving are 1) This discussion  could go on for a long, long, long time.  We have all stated our points and none of us are going to change our minds. 2) I have been "neglecting" my children because of the time I am spending on this particular thread.  They need me far more than any of you need my input.  This is the most important reason I am leaving this debate. 3) As a homeschooling mother of five, I work very hard and I need/want  my "down" time to be more relaxing. I don't mind an occasional debate but I don't want it to take up the bulk of my online time.

Willikins, Meriel and Frankie, all of you have raised some very interesting points which I would just love to respond to  but for the reasons I have mentioned above, I will no longer be visiting this thread. 

Hope the rest of you have a great time as you continue this interesting discussion.    Also hope to see all of you on other threads.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2004, 03:29:55 pm »
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I haven't read this thread at all but just thought i'd give my opinion.  I think taking the 'morning after pill' is fine.  I see no problem with it, at all.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2004, 11:45:10 pm »
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I don't think we're discussing the morning after pill.  I'm pretty sure it was a regular abortion pill that could be taken at a later date.

I don't have much to add this time, though I will say that Rose and some of the other people on the anti-choice side were not telling others what to do, only expressing what they feel.  Some people were saying abortion should be illegal and wanted to force it on others, in which case I think that that is wrong.  Because if you're okay with abortion to some degree, then you are not forcing anyone into anything; if you are against abortion on all levels, then you are taking away people's choice as to what to do with their body, even if you think it's a life it is still developing in the woman's body.  Perhaps you don't realise that by forcing your opinion, you really are telling others what they can and cannot do; again, not all of you said that, but some of you did, and I really can't agree with that.  I'm not forcing you to get an abortion; I'm not saying that I am even going to get one; but where I live, it IS my choice and I plan to keep that option open.

And thanks for bringing up that bit about Europe.  They also have national health care in some places - maybe that has something to do with it?  Being able to afford birth control?  I don't know, but you gotta admire them for not having as many teenage pregnancies.  Or at least, I admire them for that.

Woohah.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2004, 03:32:37 pm »
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Okay i just thought maybe it was the morning after pill you meant.  I've never heard of this abortion pill before.  Hm.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #100 on: November 26, 2004, 01:45:08 am »
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I hadn't heard of it either, LJ.  I think it's still being developed?  I'm not sure; got too hung up in the abortion debate. 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #101 on: November 26, 2004, 02:39:15 am »
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #102 on: November 26, 2004, 10:32:13 am »
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I think abortion is a correct action and support it fully. It's one of the few rights against men that women have.... Why destroy it when we fought so long and hard for it?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #103 on: November 26, 2004, 01:13:08 pm »
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Surely you shouldn't have rights "against" men. That's just as bad as men having rights against women. There's a type of feminism going for female superiority over men which I think is not right. Also I find abortion takes away the rights of the father who are not given a say in the birth of their child, which is completely unfair.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 01:16:46 pm by Rai » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #104 on: November 27, 2004, 01:36:46 pm »
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Quote from: Rai on November 26, 2004, 01:13:08 pm   

Surely you shouldn't have rights "against" men. That's just as bad as men having rights against women. There's a type of feminism going for female superiority over men which I think is not right. Also I find abortion takes away the rights of the father who are not given a say in the birth of their child, which is completely unfair.
Thats true, but it's not the guy that has to go through all the pain of delivering the baby, and anyways, when a women is considering abortion, or some "pill" it usualy means the guys already out the door. Even if they have the baby, the guys usualy gone. (I'm talking about younger people, like in there teenage years) The guy usualy gets scared and runs off. Sometimes they stay to support the female and the baby for all the costs, but not all the time.
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