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   Author  Topic: Abortion Pill  (Read 3150 times)
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2004, 12:51:34 am »
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Cool

I think basically if there is a "valid reason" (deformed, ill, etc) why the mother wants to terminate the pregnancy then it should be "accepted" and understood by others who are anti-abortion...  So at the end of the day the decision is actually up to the parent whether it be legal or not to have abortions.

I would NEVER just go for an abortion because I was being irresponsible and stupid.  I will most definitely keep my child, whether I'm married or single.  The only time I would consider it is if there is something seriously wrong with the fetus, like all the possibilities we have discussed.

I dunno, this is actually a topic that can run into the death penalty (I think willikins brought that up earlier)... This is all pretty interesting or me... I'm just not big into debating over the net because my typing skills are up to *bleh*...

Anyway, thanks a lot
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2004, 03:06:26 am »
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you're welcome 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2004, 03:09:00 am »
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Awwww... I love happy endings!   
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2004, 03:49:01 am »
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lol.. alrighty then.....
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2004, 09:35:28 am »
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Just a few more things I wanna reply to.


Quote from: Rose on November 22, 2004, 04:42:11 pm   
I do wonder, though, why it is okay to kill a baby one day and not the next.
Because some people don't view them as real babies yet. They're still fetuses and "part of the mother".


Quote from: Rose on November 22, 2004, 04:42:11 pm   
Why is okay to kill the baby the day before they can feel pain but not the day after.
Because even fetuses shouldn't be hurt if they can feel it, imo.


Quote from: Rose on November 22, 2004, 04:42:11 pm   
I do want to reinerate one thing I said earlier, though. All of this could be avoided if no one had premarital sex.
*g* That's true, but not very realistic in a world full of different religious and non-religious people.
I also disagree that it could be avoided if we all waited till marriage, or if some like me would never choose to have sex because they don't plan to get married *g*. Not every couple wants to have children, birth control is not 100% safe, condoms are not 100%, and if you have a "cure" for those sick rapists, please let everyone know.

Anyway, I think I've also said everything to explain my point of view on this topic. I guess I'll check out the God-thread next
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2004, 10:57:24 am »
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Hey everyone.  In my only post on this thread, I'd like to rectify something I said.  I got caught up in the moment and said something about people just being idiots sometimes.  I realize this was harsh, and didn't quite come across the way it should have.  They're certainly not idiots; they just lack...caution, I guess I could say.  And judging from my post, I lack tact.    I'm really sorry if I offended anyone.  I just thought I'd fix my mess-up.  Please understand! 

To willikins, I believe you misunderstood.  Or maybe I just said it the wrong way, but I wasn't trying to generalize, or anything else you said.  There's nothing wrong with the person who decides to have premarital sex.  Maybe I made it sound that way, and for that I apologize.  I just don't think it's wise.

I don't want a baby either, willikins.  I just don't want children.  There's a time and a place for deciding that of course, but for now I don't.  Sure, there's "protection", but sometimes protection fails to work.  I just think it's a risky thing, having premarital sex, because if you do end up pregnant, you've got a big decision on your hands.

Personally, I think abortion is incredibly horrifying, and if they should do anything if someone is 16 and with child, they should give it up for adoption.  Some people may say adoption is cruel, but which is worse?  Killing the baby, or giving it to someone else?  This was the only point I was trying to make, to clarify.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am »
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Quote from: Frankie81 on November 23, 2004, 09:35:28 am   

Because some people don't view them as real babies yet. They're still fetuses and "part of the mother".


Yes, I know some people feel this way.  I don't agree.  I believe the baby is a a real baby.


Quote from: Frankie81 on November 23, 2004, 09:35:28 am   


Because even fetuses shouldn't be hurt if they can feel it, imo.


Yes, but does "lack of pain" make it right?  I know we have gone round and round about this one, though, so I won't elaborate.



Quote from: Frankie81 on November 23, 2004, 09:35:28 am   


*g* That's true, but not very realistic in a world full of different religious and non-religious people.
I also disagree that it could be avoided if we all waited till marriage, or if some like me would never choose to have sex because they don't plan to get married *g*. Not every couple wants to have children, birth control is not 100% safe, condoms are not 100%, and if you have a "cure" for those sick rapists, please let everyone know.



You are right, it is not realistic in this world we live in, but I believe it is the ideal.  I didn't say I thought it would ever actually happen. 

I didn't say that it could ALL be avoided without premarital sex but the majority of it could.  (and yes, I know birth control is not always perfect, two of my children are only 13 months apart *grins*)  I still don't agree with abortion though.  If a married couple isn't ready for children, they can become ready for children (I really believe that most couples are ready and excited by the time the 9 months goes by) or they can wait to get married until they are ready to have children.  I know that sounds harsh, but it would prevent abortion (which I see as murder of a baby). 

And as far as the rapist goes, I admit that is a tough one.  Many people who are against abortion, do believe it is okay in the case of rape. I personally, do not.*refrains from giving the personal example of a good friend*  But if even pro-life people can't agree on that one, I know we never will on this forum so I don't even want to start a debate on this. 

As far as someone, like you, who does not plan to marry, this is going to sound harsh and come across much stronger than I intend, but celebacy is not the end of the world.  Many, many people go through life and have a perfectly happy life even NOT having sex.  (Boy, I KNOW I am gonig to get flamed for this one!!!  )  *tries to decide whether or not to delete this paragraph....takes a deep beath and decides not to...ducks*
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2004, 01:48:24 pm »
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Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am   

Yes, but does "lack of pain" make it right?  I know we have gone round and round about this one, though, so I won't elaborate.
I'm not sure if that makes it right, but sometimes the "right" thing isn't necessarily the "correct" thing to do. See, I also don't think putting more starving children into this world is right. I also believe smoking isn't right, but I'm far from saying it should be illegal. There are many things in this world I'm not happy with, but it's not only up to me to decide what's wrong and what's right, what should be legal and what shouldn't. Sometimes we have to acknowledge how other people feel about a certain situation and take a more distanced look at it (like "can a fetus be described as an individual or not" "can it feel pain or not" etc).
I've said many times now that I do not mean to encourage abortion, but after taking a critical look at the development of a fetus I find myself thinking it should be a mother's right to terminate a pregnancy, even though I wouldn't make a choice like that.
The pro-life crowd always refers to a fetus as a baby, I'm saying it's not, it's a fetus that will be a baby at some point. Why is the standard term "fetus" when we could've just called it a baby instead? It's not the same, there are different terms for every stage of development - fetus -> baby -> toddler -> ... you get the idea. A fetus isn't a baby just like an adolescent isn't a baby.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am   

I didn't say that it could ALL be avoided without premarital sex but the majority of it could.
Sorry, I thought you did, I might've interpreted it wrong.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am   
If a married couple isn't ready for children, they can become ready for children (I really believe that most couples are ready and excited by the time the 9 months goes by) or they can wait to get married until they are ready to have children.  I know that sounds harsh, but it would prevent abortion (which I see as murder of a baby).
There are many things you have to take into consideration though. An often repeated argument for not having kids is that some people want to have a decent job first to at least be able to give their families a nice home and all you need in modern life. This can take years until you actually hold the position you wanted. People often get married too young and divorces happen so frequently. Let's assume a married girl in college gets pregnant, decides to keep the baby and quits college. A couple of months later the young father decides having a family so early isn't really "his thing" and he leaves. So there she is, alone with a kid, no college degree and no decent job. If she's lucky she's got a family that supports her, otherwise she'll have to struggle a lot to feed the kid and give it a nice home. These kind of things happen quite often, this is why many young people decide to abort. In today's times you have to realize that the partner you're with might not be the same you'll have in five years, it's sad but true.
In most cases it's not that the girls don't want the child. It's the fact that they won't be able to give the child all it needs. If everything today's children needed was love, fine, but's that's not how it is. We live in a very material society and illegalizing abortion is not going to change that. An ideal world only comes with the ideal environment. I think we need to take other steps first before telling women what to do with their body.


Quote from: Rose on November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am   
As far as someone, like you, who does not plan to marry, this is going to sound harsh and come across much stronger than I intend, but celebacy is not the end of the world.  Many, many people go through life and have a perfectly happy life even NOT having sex.  (Boy, I KNOW I am gonig to get flamed for this one!!!  )  *tries to decide whether or not to delete this paragraph....takes a deep beath and decides not to...ducks*
*lol* that's okay, I'd rather flame you for the "raped women shouldn't abort either"-paragraph. *g*
Yes, I do not plan to marry, you didn't ask me though if I didn't want children as well
If I was able to adopt, I'd do it, but unmarried couples are often not permitted to adopt unless they're rich. I don't really think I'll get around that sex-thing if I plan  to have kids, do I?
Deciding whether a partner is the right one is hard, many girls that have sex for the first time think it is the right person they're with, others give in to peer pressure, maybe their boyfriend threatens to end the relationship or whatever. I'm not saying these are good reasons for having sex, but telling those kids to wait until marriage at an age they basically do anything to annoy you (at least many of them) is like telling a little kid not to press any buttons in an elevator. It's just soooo tempting.
So, rather than forbidding it there should be extensive education about this topic. I've mentioned earlier that the US has probably more pregnant teenagers than Europe. Why is that? Very few Europeans attend church, and even less would wait to have sex until they're married. Still, I believe our teen-pregnancies aren't as many as in the US (I might be wrong, but to judge from what I've seen, I'm not. I'll try to check some statistics though, if there are any).
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm »
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I said I wasn't going to write much more, didn't I?    And yet, here I am. 
I can't take the time to respond to everything you said, Frankie, but I will respond to a couple of things.

As part of the "pro-life crowd,"  you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus.  I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies."  Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant.  What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not.  If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me.  But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.

As far as the scenarios you mentioned (girl thinking someone is "the right one," girl being pressured by boyfriend, young husband leaving wife etc), you are right.  In the real world, those things are gonig to happen.  I know people make mistakes, bad decision and are abandoned by their boyfriend/husband.  But, in spite of all that, I STILL stand by my pro-life convictions.  I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible.  What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old?  Is it right to take the child's life at that point.  I personally, don't see a difference.

One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem.  If everyone "esteemed others more than themselves" no boyfriend would ever pressure a girlfriend into having sex.  If everyone put relationships over material things (which is very Biblical) then having "things" would be less important than waiting for the "perfect" time to have a child (I am talking about unplanned pregnancies in a marriage).  If everyone waited until marraige to have sex, then 90% of abortions would not even be an issue.  If everyone believed "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," then young husbands would not selfishly decide they were not ready for a family but would stick with their wife and unborn child.  I will shut up now but I could go on and on with more examples.  Like I said, I know this will never happen, but I am only saying that if everyone followed the Bible's teachings, the world would be a much better place.  Imagine how wonderful our world would be if everyone loved as Jesus loves. 

I have so much more I want to say but I need to go work on some math with my son.  I need to make sure I am not so busy advocating for other people's unborn children that I neglect the five living under my roof. 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2004, 04:18:35 pm »
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Rose, I have a question for you: do you really feel that a girl who was raped and got pregnant should keep the baby?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2004, 04:31:06 pm »
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Quote from: Cristiel on November 23, 2004, 04:18:35 pm   

Rose, I have a question for you: do you really feel that a girl who was raped and got pregnant should keep the baby?

Oh Cristiel,  I don't want to offend anyone, especially not you, who was the first person to reach out and befriend me when I joined the forum!  Let me put it this way...if I (key word) was raped, I would not have an abortion.  I would give the baby up for adoption.  I just couldn't bring myself to have an abortion (which I see as the killing of a human being) no matter how I got pregnant.  But I would NOT condemn or think badly of anyone else who had an abortion under those circumstances.

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2004, 04:37:52 pm »
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Thanks Rose, that clarifies things. I have to admit that I always get upset when people talk about things without them knowing what they are exactly talking about.  It's so easy to say that a girl who was raped should keep the baby because abortion is so wrong when you don't know what you're talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that most people don't know what it's like, but please don't condemn other people for the decisions they might make.

So, thanks for your answer Rose. You didn't offend me, I just wanted some clarification.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2004, 04:53:27 pm »
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Quote from: Cristiel on November 23, 2004, 04:37:52 pm   

Thanks Rose, that clarifies things. I have to admit that I always get upset when people talk about things without them knowing what they are exactly talking about.  It's so easy to say that a girl who was raped should keep the baby because abortion is so wrong when you don't know what you're talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that most people don't know what it's like, but please don't condemn other people for the decisions they might make.

So, thanks for your answer Rose. You didn't offend me, I just wanted some clarification.

Point taken, Cristiel.  Thanks for asking me to clarify instead of just getting mad at me.  I will try to explain more clearly in the future. 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2004, 05:45:10 pm »
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    For me, personally, I think it's worse for a baby to be put up for adoption and let there whole lives be one big problem. I had a kid in my class that was up for adoption (he'd been to tons and tons of families, but none ever liked him, and they never got along) in my science class this year, he was suicidle, he did none of his work, he hated everything and everyone. Why put a human through years of stress and pain, when you can save them from it?

    But then you ya'know, there's those kids that end up in good homes...but that's not the majority...I just wouldent want to hurt someone like that, I wouldent be able to live with myself.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm »
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I don't think anybody here is 'pro-abortion' when it comes to cases such as: Not having safe sex and aborting the 'accidents' or any other careless reasons. When my theology teacher wanted to talk to us about abortion he showed us a video first, in wich all the women who got an abortion because they where pregnant by their boss and did not want to get fired or just because they get sloppy with protection and think kids are a nuisance etc etc. We were all very pissed at him. Obviously we dissaprove of such things, DUH! His goal by showing this video, however, was giving a very one-sided view on the matter to try and influence our opinion. Did he think we're stupid?

Abortion is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly. I don't think there are many people who disagree with that. The question is: Is it ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion?

Personally, I am not very inclined to suggest abortion as a solution to any kind of problem. But be honest: Do you know what it feels like to be the pregnant raped girl? Can you solemnly swear that you will NEVER EVER think that abortion was justifiable? Do you honestly think that you have the right to judge and make the decision for others?

Some other remarks:
The fundamentalist Christians are (as to be expected) the most extreme and convinced in their opinion. I am a Christian too and well aware of what the Bible says. In this thread as well as in others I stumble across things that bother me.

First of all: In a intelligent discours about abortion, terms as 'killing babies' allready implies an opinion and is in that very judgemental of others with a different opinion (it implies they are murderers or defend or justify murder with their opinion). That is ok if you want to say how YOU feel about abortion, but not in the overall discussion. 
'If you're proabortion, why do you think is is ok to kill babies?'

uhm... what do you think someone will answer?

Could people perhaps try to see their opinion as their OPINION and see it separate from the 'frame' of the discussion? Though it might be the right conviction, realise that many people don't share that conviction. if that happens you can refrase your question or arguments without having a different opion but also without allready judgeing others.

Also: the difference people se between killing a four-year-old and having an abortion is that not everyone thinks of a fetus as a human life yet. If you start out with the given: a fetus is a child and a live, there is no difference. If You start out with the given: a fetus isn't a human being yet, the first case is murder, the second case not. That makes it easy? That makes it allways right? no. But if this is your conviction that means it isn't murder


On the side: I surely hope people won't live their life literally by the Bibles teachings. It would imply a lot of very womenunfriendly laws and traditions. Of course these Bibletexts are not what you had in mind when you talk about living by the Bibles teachings, but that's my point. Everybody has a different defenition of 'living by the Bibles teachings' As someone who sees the Bible as a cultural, historical document that contains the word of God, but in symbolism and metaphors, I keep finding it hard to determine what more orthodox people take literally and what not. Homosexuality is a sin, but long hair doesn't mean you're a wh*re anymore. I cannot see any logic in it. I suspect people take literally what suits them and not literally what doesn't suit them. In my case I would speak of an ideal world or a world without evil, paradise even, there abortion and rape would not exist.


About abortion in the case of serious illness and deformity: This is extremely difficult. If you know that your child will be so ill or in such a condition that it's only perspective is to suffer horribly and then die, I would seriously consider my options. However: where do you draw the line? Is it justified to abort a pregnancy because the child will have down-syndrome or another mental handicap or a physical one?

My older sister has down-syndrome and was also born with a heartcondition. I know all the pro's and cons on this matter, it doesn't make it any easier.

If I was pregnant and knew the child would have downsyndrome I would have it. Absolutely, no question. My sister had a serious heartcondition. Noone expected her to live very long. For nine long years she has suffered horribly. For my parents it was almost unbearable to see her suffer like this in the knowledge she would die in the end. My mother told me that at some points my parents asked theirselves what they were putting her through and if they could justify keeping her alive. Without the extensive medical care, she would have died almost immediately. Was it right that they kept her alive? At the age of nine, my sister underwent a very risky surgery. The chance she would survive was 20 percent. My parents decided on the surgery anyway, for without the surgery she would die as well. My sister was one of the first to survive the operation and the aftermath. She is now a happy 25-year-old with down-syndrome and I honestly believe she is a great contribution to this world.

Do I now know what I would do when I knew my child would probably suffer and die? No. Absolutely not. I do however think that it is not my right to judge others and their desicion in matters as these.

So to sum things up: I am not pro-abortion, but pro-choice.

(ps:Also think advocating no pre-marital sex is not going to get the teenage pregnancyrates any lower. More tuition on safe sex would. )
(pps: I don't think there is anything wrong with pre-marital sex either)
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