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   Author  Topic: Abortion Pill  (Read 2965 times)
Rose ~RSF~
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2004, 11:35:34 am »
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Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   



and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.

Yes, I agree, Twoleafclover.  Avoiding premarital sex would eliminate most of the reason given to abort a child.  It would also eliminate a lot of sexual diseases. 

I realize that the pressure is very strong for young people to have sex before marriage. But you know what, I have never met a person who has been a virgin on their wedding night who has regretted it.  I have met many people who were not a virgin on their wedding night who regret it deeply.  And I am not just talking about people who share my faith and beliefs.  There is something so special about saving your body for that one special person.  I am so thankful I have never had sex with anyone other than the love of my life, my husband.  Neither has he. We saved our bodies for each other and there is something very sweet and special about that.

Frankie, thank you for posting the article.  I have to say, though, that it did not convince me.  I think I mentioned in a previous post that I have had seven early miscarriages.  I held one of my tiny babies in my hand.  He was only ten weeks gestation but he was fully formed.  I could even tell he was a boy.  I am not convinced that he would not have felt pain during an abortion.

As far as what the laws are here in the USA about how far into the pregnancy you can have an abortion, I have to admit I don't know.  Does anyone else know?

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm »
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Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   
now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.
Just as you think they don't deserve to die because of an illness (which is kind of ironic, cause they'll probably die soon anyway) I think every child deserves to grow up happy. There's no way we can give each and every one of those children all they need, especially if the population rate keeps growing like this. This doesn't mean we should go to Africa and abort all their babies, though. I think willikins merely used those children as an example of overpopulation and unhappiness among orphans, which is true.
And no, it wasn't their doings but they still have to pay for it by growing up in poverty and with a disease they will soon die of. But I think simple birth control would help that region a lot.


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   
and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.


Quote from: Rose on November 20, 2004, 11:35:34 am   

Frankie, thank you for posting the article.  I have to say, though, that it did not convince me.  I think I mentioned in a previous post that I have had seven early miscarriages.  I held one of my tiny babies in my hand.  He was only ten weeks gestation but he was fully formed.  I could even tell he was a boy.  I am not convinced that he would not have felt pain during an abortion.
I'm sorry for your loss, Rose.
But the article I posted did mention that:
In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.
Their body is already developed but the inner organs aren't, so no, at that stage they cannot feel any pain.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2004, 04:30:25 pm »
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Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 07:54:35 pm   

Haha, I think that that's the first time I've been called a skillfull debater, Rose.  And anyway, when I read what someone writes, I try to get at the heart of what they're saying instead of focusing on the wording they use, though if it's completely out there then I might have trouble understanding.


LOL!    I appreciate that you look at the heart instead of how well I may say something.    I have strong beliefs but have trouble articulating them. 




Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 07:54:35 pm   


Unfortunately for me, I do not have the links right now to show you articles about overpopulation. 

That's okay, Willikins.  Don't go to the trouble of trying to find the links on that.  I realize could be wrong on this (gasp!    ) issue and the worldl may indeed be overpopulated. It is not something I feel strongly about either way, though it doesn't change my views on abortion since I don't feel it is right to kill an unborn child, whether the world is overpopulated or not.  (On a side note, I do have five of my own children so I guess I haven't done much to stop the world's overpopulations,  if indeed it is.  My husband and I wanted lots of children, in fact we would have had more except that I kept miscarrying and I could not handle that emotionally any more so I had my tubes tied.  It took 13 pregnancies to get my five children. I would have had seven if I could have. Anyway, sorry to get off on this rabbit trail.)


Quote from: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm   


You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.


I feel this was sort of an unfair accusation. Don't we all give our point of view based on our beliefs?  You feel that JessB and Twoleafclover state their positions based on their belief in God, and, yes, they do. But don't you give your views based on your belief that abortion is okay and that there is no God?  We all give our opinions based on our own worldview.

As far as saying that if we believe the Bible's laws we should not pretend to be tolerant, I think that is a bit unfair, too.  (Yes, I know life isn't fair.)  My beliefs and convictions for myself are based on the Bible.  But that does not mean that I don't respect you and your opinions.

However, I will be the first to admit that I am NOT tolerant of abortion.  When I oppose abortion, I believe I am advocating and defending those who can not defend themselves (the unborn child).  If someone choses to not believe in God or chooses to have premarital sex, I do not agree with them, but I respect their right to their own belief.  But if someone chosese to kill an unborn baby, I just can't respect or accept that.  You would be absolutely right if you accuse me of not being tolerant in that area.  I believe a woman has a right to do what ever she wants to with her OWN body, but not with the body of her baby.  On a side note, I have heard my babies' heartbeats as early as 6 weeks gestation.  The heartbeat was another human beings, not my own.  If a woman wants to cover her body in tatoos and body piercing, I may not appreciate it or like it but I agree that she has a right to do that.  However, she does not have a right to kill her unborn child.  I am very passionate about my belief about that.


Quote from: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm   


I'm sorry for your loss, Rose.
But the article I posted did mention that:
In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.
Their body is already developed but the inner organs aren't, so no, at that stage they cannot feel any pain.

Thank you, Frankie.  I know you are sincere when you say you are sorry for my loss. That means a lot.

Okay, perhaps the baby does not feel pain (I am still not ready to accept this as fact based on the one article) but, I still don't think that justifies an abortion.  As I said before, if someone shoots me in the head while I am sleeping, I will feel no pain, but that does not make it right.

Before I go, I want to share a site for an article on abortion that I think is really good. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1116abortion.asp

Looking forward to hearing from you.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 08:58:39 pm by Rose » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2004, 11:10:46 pm »
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Quote from: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm   


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   
now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.
Just as you think they don't deserve to die because of an illness (which is kind of ironic, cause they'll probably die soon anyway) I think every child deserves to grow up happy. There's no way we can give each and every one of those children all they need, especially if the population rate keeps growing like this. This doesn't mean we should go to Africa and abort all their babies, though. I think willikins merely used those children as an example of overpopulation and unhappiness among orphans, which is true.
And no, it wasn't their doings but they still have to pay for it by growing up in poverty and with a disease they will soon die of. But I think simple birth control would help that region a lot.


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   
and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.

i don't see how i'm hiding behind God just b/c i'm voicing my opinions. i really don't understand what point your trying to make. i don't believe that we have the authority to end lives...we're not God. this is my personal belief. i don't see how that's hiding behind God.

i never said everyone should obey the Bible, i said that i couldn't understand how someone could kill a child. this is my opinion/reasoning. but i believe a "fetus" is a child when the sperm comes into contact with the egg.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 01:01:35 am by twoleafclover » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am »
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Concerning the whole "hiding behind God" issue:
If someone believes in God, then because of that belief, they will not find it necessary to have scientific proof.  If they believe in the bible, then that is their proof.  It is not scientific, but it relates to their morals and why they have them.  And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases.  Rose linked to an article, which I found to be more productive and more helpful to understanding her point of view.  However, I can understand the idea that if one believes solely in God and solely in the bible, then that will affect how they feel about other people's lives and about abortion - it has to do with their own morals.  If their belief in God is strong, they will find that to be strong evidence of their claim.  I don't consider this "hiding" since it's not only God but their morals that they're using to explain their point of view.  I don't think attacking them in this way is at all conducive to this debate.  I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.

Concering killing off the next generation:
Hi.  When did I ever say that in post?  From where did you get this idea?  There are still plenty of people in the world who want to have kids, and do so - take Rose an example.  She has five healthy kids.  She loves kids.  And there are plenty of people in the world who are like her.  And that's fine.  I NEVER said we should kill the entire next generation.  I said we should be responsible for what we decide, and that if we got pregnant by accident after taking many precautions against it, with the exception of abstaining completely, then we should be allowed to get an abortion.  With the rate at which the population is growing, it is not nearly anything close to killing off the next generation if we allowed abortions for unwanted children.

Concerning "unwanted" children:
I don't know if you're interpreting the way I'm meaning this word correctly.  I mean children who were not planned and will be tossed to social services or some such things instead of being cared for in it's biological family.  In other words, they are unwanted by their parents, and, as far as I can tell, by the majority of people in the world.

Concerning statements like "my friend ____":
Yes, sometimes there are people who have different experiences.  One friend who had trouble adopting someone does not convince me that there is an overabundance of people in the world who want to adopt children.  In fact, a lot of people are adopting overseas more and more because of regulations set in the United States.  So that means that more children in the US are being born and sent to social services without parents who want to adopt because it's just too much trouble.  Also, social services is there to make sure that the child will be safe.  How am I to know what they thought of the person trying to adopt?  Maybe they felt they were too old or not patient enough?  There are usually reasons for being denied adoption.  Either way, one friend's experience is not at all indicative of the way in which the rest of the world functions.  Such statements, for me, need the backup of physical proof; otherwise, I just ignore them.  Using something as an example is okay, but basing your statement on one or even five events is not proof - it is a sample.  I want to know about the majority.

Concerning abortion as a first resort:
I have never said abortion should be the first resort.  I have said several times that I think people should get counseling first, and that they should educate themselves about preventative measures.  However, if someone has been educated and something happened where they got pregnant, and they went to counseling and knew that they could not handle a child, I think that they should have the option to terminate the pregnancy.

Concerning abortion in general:
If the fetus is within the first trimester or whatever, then yes, I think a woman should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy.  I don't think - nor have I ever explicityly said - that someone six or nine months pregnant should have that option, since the fetus, by then, has a nervous system and all that and that, to me, would actually feel like murder.

Concerning the nervous system:
Thanks to Frankie for that article.  I realise that you have had a personal experience Rose, and I, too, am sorry that you had to go through a lot of loss in order to have a big family.  My grandmother went through a few miscarriages and a stillborn birth and she's still sad about them; she managed to have six children in the end, though.  However, my argument was that the fetus would not feel pain and while they may have a heartbeat and be in the first stages of formation, medical evidence shows that they cannot physically feel pain in the earliest stages of pregnancy.  It is physical fact, so that's what I'm going to choose to believe.  It's not that I hate life or that I think we should kill all babies, but if a child is going to have a hard childhood later, then I don't think we're doing them a favour by pointing them to a life alone where they are constantly miserable, which is case all too often.

Concerning Rose's article:
That is a good point.  However, we are still talking about something that is feeding off of the woman's body (via placenta) and is physically affecting the woman.  It is not like a woman can go through nine months and not notice a pregnancy.  She has to stop working, she has to make sure she eats well, she has to exercise, she has to go through labour...it is all dependant on her.  The fetus is not a separate entity or anything - it has to be inside the mother.  To be somewhat crude, a tampon is inserted into the body but can be removed without depending on the woman; you cannot simply insert a baby and remove it; what I mean is that the baby is inside the woman and for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, it IS part of her.

You also stated that you have no problem with a woman getting tattoo or whatver, even if you didn't condone such an action on a personal level.  Why is the exterior of the body different than the interior?  Because the interior can give life?  Her skin is as much a part of her body as her uterus, if you ask me.  To be selective about which parts she can use of her own body seems, to me, to be contradictory and unfair.

Also, the health of the baby, the possibility of it growing without any defects - this all depends on how the mother behaves.  If a smoker is having protected sex and all that and decides she doesn't want to have a baby because she doesn't think she can stop smoking, I would applaud her.  Have you SEEN Down Syndrome?  How is that fair to the child, to force them into a life where they are handicapped and suffering?  Same goes for the AIDS in South Africa argument: I realise that you think shutting off that child's life, even if it is for a short time, is not okay, but do you know the amount of suffering an AIDS patient goes through?  It's terrible!  A few people actually try to kill themselves - and these are adults, mind you - because they can't handle going through that.  And treatment is expensive; South Africans don't have that kind of money.  You're saying we should let children live in pain for up to who knows how many years.  Do you think your child would be happy and not blame you?  I wouldn't be able to face a child if I knew that I'd brought them into the world like that.  I'm not saying we should kill the child once it's born, but if we can stop it from feeling that pain for so many years...well, I think that's better and fairier to the child.  If we are really talking about their interests instead of ours, then I really don't deem it considerate to force them into pain.

Quick explanation of Down Syndrome

And that pain translates to emotional pain as well.  In my eyes, we should do what's best for the child.  If it is going to suffer, why not stop that from happening?  To me, it seems like the rational thing to do.  If I knew that I was going to be born into a world where I was going to die in ten years, I'd prefer not to live.  Ten years of pain is not a true life, if you ask me.

Here are some statistics about adoption. The majority of parents search for their children and vice versa, so that was surprising.  On the other hand, adoption seems to have a waiting period of 2-6 years.  Imagine waiting to be adopted for six years.

I am quoting from the above link because I found it to be interesting:


Quote:
o CONCERNING THE OUTCOME OF REUNION
Respondents are equally divided on the outcome of their reunion with an equal number of people replying that it is:not worth the effort, has problems but all parties are committed to working them out, or the individual was rejected immediately.

So it's a split outcome, even in the case of reunions.  Either way, adoption, to me, does not suggest a happy family in the end.  This was only about reunions, not about adoption in general.

I would like to say that if the mother is fine with carrying the baby to term, then I have no problem with that.  I am only talking about abortion for women who do not feel they can go through the pregnancy and have no want of bringing a child into the world, and have done everything in their power (in terms of pregnancy prevention) to make sure they were not brought into that position.

Concerning teenage pregnancy:
This is truly like an epidemic in my home state of California and it sickens me.  I think there should be more efforts put into forcefully (yes, as in a required class) educating the younger generation so that they do not get pregnant.  I think the best tool would be to see videos and also, if science and technology makes further advancements, to have them go through a virtual simulation of what it will feel like to be pregnant.  In the end, whether or not a teenager has an abortion or goes through with the pregnancy, I think it will be equally taxing mentally.

Please, in the future, if you think I am saying that I should kill everyone on the planet, please ASK if that is what I'm saying.  This is the third time I've had to say that I do not condone killing, and I am only talking about babies who are not planned and intended, the woman did what she could to prevent the birth, and she does not want to bring it into the world.  Stop putting words in my mouth, if you could be so kind.  If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's rather annoying seeing my arguments being translated to "kill everyone muahahahaha I'm evil."  Okay?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2004, 12:51:44 am »
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Quote from: willikins on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am   

Concerning the whole "hiding behind God" issue:
If someone believes in God, then because of that belief, they will not find it necessary to have scientific proof.  If they believe in the bible, then that is their proof.  It is not scientific, but it relates to their morals and why they have them.  And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases.  Rose linked to an article, which I found to be more productive and more helpful to understanding her point of view.  However, I can understand the idea that if one believes solely in God and solely in the bible, then that will affect how they feel about other people's lives and about abortion - it has to do with their own morals.  If their belief in God is strong, they will find that to be strong evidence of their claim.  I don't consider this "hiding" since it's not only God but their morals that they're using to explain their point of view.  I don't think attacking them in this way is at all conducive to this debate.  I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.

thank you for saying that, i think that helped people to better understand mine, and other peoples perspectives  and thank you also for seeing everyones outlook, even though you may not agree, i appreciate your ability to be open to all angles.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2004, 03:23:58 am »
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Quote from: Rose on November 20, 2004, 04:30:25 pm   

I feel this was sort of an unfair accusation. Don't we all give our point of view based on our beliefs?  You feel that JessB and Twoleafclover state their positions based on their belief in God, and, yes, they do.
Okay, so I will just ask how far does this opinion go? Do you agree with a law that says abortion should be an option for women who want it, or do you think it should be definitely illegal for every woman? All I was saying was, if you want it to be illegal you need to argue differently instead of using the bible's words, because the bible's words may not apply to everyone. If this is merely your opinion, that's fine, I understand that. All I'm saying is you cannot possibly convince atheists with those kind of arguments.


Quote from: Rose on November 20, 2004, 04:30:25 pm   

But don't you give your views based on your belief that abortion is okay and that there is no God?  We all give our opinions based on our own worldview.
No, you're wrong. I was giving an example and said "if" I was an atheist. I am not. I do believe in God, just not in the bible
I was saying abortion is okay for those who want it. There are so many children suffering, why would I want to "force" even more of them into this world? Again, this doesn't mean I want every unplanned pregnancy to be terminated, but if the mother strongly wishes to do so, I think it is her right.
I also agree with willikins that there should be far more educational programs so there'll be fewer "accidents". In no other place I've been to have I ever seen as many pregnant teenagers as in the US. Some high schools even need to have daycares, what's up with that?


Quote from: Rose on November 20, 2004, 04:30:25 pm   

As far as saying that if we believe the Bible's laws we should not pretend to be tolerant, I think that is a bit unfair, too.  (Yes, I know life isn't fair.)  My beliefs and convictions for myself are based on the Bible.  But that does not mean that I don't respect you and your opinions.
That's not what I was saying. If you believe the Bible's laws that is fine with me. I really don't care. But what you are trying to do (in case you want abortion to be illegal) is force your belief on those who don't share it. That is intolerant, isn't it?
Okay, you don't believe what the article said about the non-existent pain. But I'd rather not spend my time looking for more info of that sort, cause I'm sure you would still not believe it, would you? So why don't you try to find me an article that explains how a fetus CAN feel pain when their nervous system isn't fully developed? (I haven't looked at the site you posted yet, I'm too tired right now, but I'll read it later)


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am   

i don't see how i'm hiding behind God just b/c i'm voicing my opinions. i really don't understand what point your trying to make. i don't believe that we have the authority to end lives...we're not God. this is my personal belief. i don't see how that's hiding behind God.
I might've misunderstood. You've said your friend had an abortion which you supported, so does that mean you wouldn't want it to be illegal because you respect other people's decision even though you don't agree with it? If so, I apologize. It's just that many people seem to use the bible's words as arguments lately, which is useless in debates as it remains a belief, not a proven fact (I don't mean specifically in this forum, I'm having a similar discussion in another forum as well).

My personal belief is also that I wouldn't have an abortion, unless there's a good reason for it, like rape for example (even my mother had an abortion once, because she was in a bad health condition and the baby would've probably died anyway). I do however recognize that my personal belief is not everybody else's.


Quote from: willikins on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am   

And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases.
I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.
I do not want scientific proof for God's existence (if that's what you mean) because I don't need it, I'm not an atheist. I do understand their view, but I'm not going to repeat everything again unless you want me to *lol*
If it's solely an opinion, that's fine. If it's supposed to be a valid argument to show why abortion should be illegal, I'm not even able to agree to disagree, because it's based on a belief many people don't share.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2004, 04:46:00 pm »
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Quote from: willikins on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am   



Concering killing off the next generation:
Hi.  When did I ever say that in post?  From where did you get this idea?  There are still plenty of people in the world who want to have kids, and do so - take Rose an example.  She has five healthy kids.  She loves kids.  And there are plenty of people in the world who are like her.  And that's fine.  I NEVER said we should kill the entire next generation.  I said we should be responsible for what we decide, and that if we got pregnant by accident after taking many precautions against it, with the exception of abstaining completely, then we should be allowed to get an abortion.  With the rate at which the population is growing, it is not nearly anything close to killing off the next generation if we allowed abortions for unwanted children.


If I was one of the ones that you felt implied that you wanted to "kill off the next generation," I sincerely apologize.    I never meant to imply that and I never felt you believed that.


Quote from: willikins on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am   


Concerning Rose's article:
That is a good point.  However, we are still talking about something that is feeding off of the woman's body (via placenta) and is physically affecting the woman.  It is not like a woman can go through nine months and not notice a pregnancy.  She has to stop working, she has to make sure she eats well, she has to exercise, she has to go through labour...it is all dependant on her.  The fetus is not a separate entity or anything - it has to be inside the mother.  To be somewhat crude, a tampon is inserted into the body but can be removed without depending on the woman; you cannot simply insert a baby and remove it; what I mean is that the baby is inside the woman and for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, it IS part of her.

You also stated that you have no problem with a woman getting tattoo or whatver, even if you didn't condone such an action on a personal level.  Why is the exterior of the body different than the interior?  Because the interior can give life?  Her skin is as much a part of her body as her uterus, if you ask me.  To be selective about which parts she can use of her own body seems, to me, to be contradictory and unfair.

Also, the health of the baby, the possibility of it growing without any defects - this all depends on how the mother behaves.  If a smoker is having protected sex and all that and decides she doesn't want to have a baby because she doesn't think she can stop smoking, I would applaud her.  Have you SEEN Down Syndrome?  How is that fair to the child, to force them into a life where they are handicapped and suffering?  Same goes for the AIDS in South Africa argument: I realise that you think shutting off that child's life, even if it is for a short time, is not okay, but do you know the amount of suffering an AIDS patient goes through?  It's terrible!  A few people actually try to kill themselves - and these are adults, mind you - because they can't handle going through that.  And treatment is expensive; South Africans don't have that kind of money.  You're saying we should let children live in pain for up to who knows how many years.  Do you think your child would be happy and not blame you?  I wouldn't be able to face a child if I knew that I'd brought them into the world like that.  I'm not saying we should kill the child once it's born, but if we can stop it from feeling that pain for so many years...well, I think that's better and fairier to the child.  If we are really talking about their interests instead of ours, then I really don't deem it considerate to force them into pain.


Yes, I realize a baby in the first 1/2 to 2/3s of the pregnancy can not survive outside of the mother's womb.  But I still don't believe that makes the baby part of the mother's body.  A newborn child and even very young children, would not survive without someone to take care of them, but that doesn't mean they aren't a seperate individual. 

Perhaps the tatoos and piercings were not a good example.  Let me think of a better one...okay, if a woman wants to donate a kidney to someone with kidney failture, (an act which I would think very heroic, by the way) tht is her body and she can have the kidney removed to do this without consulting anyone.  But to "remove" a baby through abortion is a totally different thing.

As far as aborting a child so it won't suffer later...I don't see this as a valid reason either.  Many children have been born with downs syndrome and other problems yet they are joyful, happy children.  In college I volunteered in a home for the mentally disableed and they were the sweetest, happiest, most joyful people I have ever seen.  I am so thankful their parents didn't abort them.  As far as other problems like aids and things like that, I still don't believe that gives us a right to kill them.  My husband's life is greatly complicated with Juvinille diabetes and he has a less than perfect life because of having it, but he is still thankful and happy to be alive.  I have a son who was born with a severe birth defect and underwent ten surgeries and much pain but I am sure if I asked him if he wishes we had aborted him so that he would not have had to endure all that suffering, he would choose life. (On a side note, this child is such a joy.  He is very unselfish and kind and wants to help others and I am sure the suffering he has endured has helped him become this kind of person). My Mom grew up in a horrible home situation with not enough to eat and physical abuse, but she is glad she was not aborted (her mom considered it).  All of us will endure suffering to one degree or another in life, but that does not mean we should kill a baby because they will have less than perfect life.  I don't think "possible future suffering" is an excuse to kill an unborn child.


Quote from: willikins on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am   

If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's rather annoying seeing my arguments being translated to "kill everyone muahahahaha I'm evil."  Okay?

I don't think you are evil at all, Willikins    In fact quite the opposite.    I see you has someone who is very concerned about the world around you.

Frankie, I wanted to respond to several things in your post, too, but I need to go.  I will write more later.

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2004, 04:50:10 pm »
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Okay here is my opinion on this rough subject.  To me, it is so wrong.  Abortion and birth control is murder to me.  Maybe it is my Christian faith I get this from, but I believe everyone deserves to have a right to life and live.  I mean not to offend anyone.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2004, 05:01:38 pm »
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I'm sorry but using birthcontrol has nothing to do with murder. What about using a condom to protect yourself against something like Aids? I hope you've ever heard of that...

Using birthcontrol has to do with being responsible, about understanding the possible consequences of having sex with someone.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2004, 05:06:16 pm »
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Excuse me, clearly I didn't make myself clear on that.  I meant that abortion is murder.  I don't like birth control, because it is doing exactly that, preventing birth.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2004, 05:07:55 pm »
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Rose, don't worry - it wasn't you who implied that, it was someone else.  I just don't like having my arguments simplified into something monstrous.

As for the idea of not aborting children: I have seen a lot of people who have felt the opposite.  One of my friends works with autistic children and half of them are depressed at the way they were born.  She says it's difficult to work there sometimes because things can get emotional.  I mean, she still likes the work and all that, but not everyone who is born with a disability is happy.  I, for instance, have problems with my esophagus: I am not saying that I should haev been aborted because of it, or that I would have wanted to be aborted, even though the pain can sometimes be quite unbearable.  What I'm saying is that if the mother did not want the child, has no want of going through the pregnancy and has tried everything she can to prevent it, then I see no reason for why making her go through with it is a good idea.  I'm fully aware that not everyone who has some sort of problem or defect is unhappy, but many are; some work through it, others don't.  But the ones who work through it usually have the support of their family; this would not necessarily be the case in adoption.  Remember that adoption takes anywhere between 2-6 years; if a child was born with Down Syndrome and wasn't adopted for so many years, I think that the roots of depression would most likely set in because they'd already be plenty different from the other children and no one would be around that much to care for them and give them inspiration or hope.

Also, I stand by my earlier argument for a child who has HIV passed onto them.  I have seen too many documentaries about AIDS and it really just isn't fair to the child in my opinion. I realise you think that the child would want to live because that way they would at least get to experience life, but if most of their life is spent in pain as their body deteriorates...to me, that seems wrong.

Even with the explanation of the kidney, she could have chosen to keep it and deny someone the right to it - someone who wasn't part of her body but needed her body to live, just as a child would need her body to live.  Is it all right to deny an adult, then?  For instance, I am not on the donor list anywhere, because my religion states that we are supposed to be buried whole (or that is my understanding of it).  So I do not donate.  I am keeping my organs for my own reasons and if someone needed my marrow or whatever, they would not be able to get it.  Does that mean I'm killing that person - because I'm choosing my beliefs instead of donating a body part that might help them?  And if a fetus is as much a person as you or I, then why is it different to deny them my uterus?  Because it's not part of my religion?  What if I make it part of my personal religion?  Does it gain more validity then?  I mean to say, if religion is the reason you are using, why can't I use my religion to the same capacity?

Lastly, the statement that birth control is murder is preposterous.  Please research birth control before you speak.  The whole idea is preventing the egg from being released.  There is no killing of eggs; it is simply preventing the woman from ovulating in the first place.  There is no formation between the sperm and the egg because the egg is not even there.  There is no possible way for that to be considered murder when the eggs are still there and never get fertilised.  Nothing is formed so nothing can be killed - hence no possible fetus to murder.  Read up on it if you do not believe me.  I am too tired to provide links at the moment.

ETA: Regarding preventing birth:

If you are against this, then you are going to the extent where you are telling people what to do with their bodies to the utmost, which is not cool.  I can understand thinking that people who are ready to have sex are ready to get pregnant; however, we know quite well that this is not the case.  And now that science has been advanced to develop birth control  pills so that we can exercise our free will to enjoy sex if we choose - and this is only regarding pregnancy; we also have to be careful about STDs - then I think that that is much better than bringing in tons of unwanted children into the world, nevermind abortion.  You are basically forcing people to conform to your ideas for this.  It's fine to have an opinion, but this one feels more like you're telling people what to do.  You can't blame people for wanting to prevent birth.  People prevent colds as well.  We prevent what we can't handle.  I honestly think you need to respect that, since we are not harming anyone in the process.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 05:18:07 pm by willikins » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2004, 07:11:08 pm »
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Quote from: Rose on November 21, 2004, 04:46:00 pm   

I have a son who was born with a severe birth defect and underwent ten surgeries and much pain but I am sure if I asked him if he wishes we had aborted him so that he would not have had to endure all that suffering, he would choose life. (On a side note, this child is such a joy.  He is very unselfish and kind and wants to help others and I am sure the suffering he has endured has helped him become this kind of person).
But I'm sure your son is growing up in a loving home. He might think differently if he additionally grew up in poverty, orphaned and unloved. Some have to go through a lot in life and it actually makes them wonderful and caring people, I agree with that. But others who have to endure the same pain do not turn out that way. Two examples do not represent a majority. I know people who suffered and are quite happy now, but I also know some who wish they had never been born, and all of them were born in western societies where the basic needs of children are mostly fulfilled. Did you ever take a look at orphanages in 3rd world or even 2nd world countries? If I should ever adopt I wouldn't even consider a child of a first world country, because they're pretty well off compared to those who barely have anything to eat. A way too large percentage of them dies young and unhappy. If their mothers don't want to give birth to the child, they should be able to choose. If they want to have the baby even if they're not able to give it anything but love, that is also their choice. I never said we should kill them all. 

I was also wondering about your comments of waiting until marriage.
Well, I do not intend to ever get married. Maybe I'll change my opinion someday, but right now the thought of marriage isn't very appealing to me. I don't see a real difference between living with a partner and being married to him, other than sharing the same name and paying less taxes. So how long should I have waited? Until I changed my opinion of marriage?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2004, 07:47:01 pm »
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Quote from: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm   


You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.

*blinks* ... *blinks again* ... how was i even brought into this? I've only posted like... two things on this thread. Another, I don't really appreciate how you brought me into this post, Frankie. I think that you missunderstand me by thinking that i believe and stand for something ONLY because God says. ... Anything i stand for, i stand for because i have thought it through and reasoned with it. Not JUST because God said it, but because i think that it's what's best as well. Believe it or not, but i do have a mind of my own as well, and i do use it. Puppies can't feel anything when they're just born... but wouldn't you be upset if someone drown puppies just because it was believed they can't feel before they have their eyes open? These are human children. Give them a few months, and they'll not only be able to feel, they'll be able to reason, somethin that no animal can. Yet people get more upset over puppies being killed that babies? Don't get me wrong, i don't think puppies should be killed either. But if i had to chose between a dog living or a human being living, i wouldn't even have to think to chose the human.  Why should we be given the descion to end somethign that we can't create? Scientists have tried many ways to "build" a human and give it life... but it never works. we can't go into a hospital and give a thing life, why should we be able to end it? that, in short... is my arguement . And please refrain from any future impulses to use me as "bad" example. I don't appreciate it.

*edit* ~ Happened to see another post. ~
Frankie, i've never seen you in such a hostile mood, but i have to admit i don't appreciate it.

Quote:
Jess, somehow you always end up bringing your personal belief into these debates. Let me ask you this, what if people aren't destined to be anything but become what they decide to be?
Or hey, what if that baby grew up to become a serial killer? (maybe I should open up a thread about whether you're for or against death penalty?)
Sorry, but these are just lame excuses
Frankie, you always end up bringing your personal beliefs into these debates as well. Name me someone that doesn't. And i didn't realize that predestination, something that millions of people all over the world believe, was lame. I, personally, think that you believing that a mother has the right to take the soon-to-be life of her soon-to-be baby is lame, but until this point i've refrained from saying so. I'm sorry you don't agree with my point of view, but for you to say that I am intolorant of other peoples belief is very hypocritical, since you, apparently, do not tolorate nor respect my point of view.
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Stop reading my signature. Don't deny it. You're reading it. I can see you. You're giving it the casual little once-over. How rude. Didn't your mother teach you better?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2004, 08:15:23 pm »
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I will ask that we please refrain from attacking each other.  If you have a problem with a certain member or feel attacked, please try to resolve it via PMs.  If that does not work, you are free to PM me or one of the global moderators.

Let's move on.

I did want to say one thing about killing puppies:

In the sense that you're bringing this example (I am not saying it is good or bad; it is simply an example) into the mix, I would have to say that by the time a human could drown a puppy (not something I condone), the puppy would have to be be out of the womb.  As we are discussing what is going on inside the womb, that does not really seem, to me, to be relevant.  Even if we are discussing aborting the puppy, that does not seem relevant for the simple fact that humans are not dogs.  Dogs do not have the same cranial capacity; dogs do not have to pay money for their children; dogs do not work, and have to take time off of work to raise their puppies.  Also, many dogs are neutered and spayed for their own health; and that is taking a preventative measure as well.  But it's for their health, is it not?  I have always been told by the vet to spay or neuter my cats, and I always have.  My cats were outdoor cats, so this bit of information was rather relevant, as I did not want my cats siring all sorts of kittens all over the neighbourhood.  The kittens would have died from neglect and not being cared for, since we did not keep track of where our cat went.

The point being that animals and humans are two entirely different species.  Though even in animals, it has been proven that preventing copulating can be healthier for the animal.  If you REALLY want to use that example in relation to humans, then I am going to have to argue that it can also be healthier for a woman to prevent children from being born, since it might be healthier for her mental state.

To recap: I am only using my cat as an example.  However, it has been said by every vet to whom I've ever spoken that it is in the animal's best interests to be spayed or neutered - NO VET has EVER told me otherwise.  It is also up on veterinarian websites.  It has been proven scientifically.

Though really, I don't agree with bringing animals into this, since, like I've said, they are not in the same situations as humans at all.  It is not a relevant example, in my opinion.
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