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twoleafclover
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2004, 01:07:32 am »
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Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 12:45:02 am   


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 18, 2004, 11:27:16 pm   

think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.

Wouldn't you have to apply the same reasoning to every egg that a woman ever had, even if it didn't meet with sperm?  I've thought often of what would have happened if it hadn't been my egg that had been fertilised; it would not have made me sad, since I would not be conscious of it.  You're talking to us about remorse for if we hadn't been born, but if we hadn't been born, we would have nothing about which to feel remorseful, since we would not be alive.  What I mean is that feti (the plural of fetus), as far as I know, do not have memories.  If they are aborted, they will not know that they have missed out on something, so how can they feel pain about that?  As for physical pain, I really am not well-versed in what an abortion feels like from either the perspective of the mother nor the fetus, but I suspect that the fetus does not have a fully developed nervous system in order to feel pain.  Without full developed nerves - the things that control our physical, and sometimes, emotional feelings - there is not a logical way they would feel pain.  Again, I am not sure how developed their nervous system is, but if it is not developed, then one cannot make the argument that they would feel pain since they cannot feel anything.

I am talking about physical pain.  If you are talking about emotional pain, I don't agree but I'm not going to spend time arguing it.

I would like to say that the world is overpopulated as it is.  It IS overpopulated - that is actually a concrete fact.  And there are NOT a lot of people wanting to adopt.  I don't know which statistics you've been reading, but if you point me to them, that would help me believe your point.  Every article and every news show and special I've seen talks about a high percentage of unwanted orphans.  There are more unwanted children in orphanages than wanted ones, from what I've read and seen.  I would hate to bring another unwanted child into the world.  Concerning emotional pain, I think it would hurt just as much to feel discarded like that, to be forced into a life where you were stuck in an orphanage because no one wanted you, not even your own parents.  Because that's what you're doing - you're choosing their life for them.  Unless you can show me for a fact that there is only a small percentage of unwanted children in the world, I simply cannot agree with the idea you present.

Nevermind that it takes a huge mental toll on the mother.  A lot of women go into depression when they get pregnant.  I, personally, would feel utterly disgusted at the idea of carrying a child that I didn't want because some man found it to be his right to rape me.  That is unfair in my opinion.  I would not want to disgrace myself and my body that way; to be disgraced with the rape itself would be too taxing as it is.  I have only spoken to one rape victim and I would never wish that on anyone.  She would never have been able to keep the child, had she not been on birth control.  She probably would have committed suicide or some such thing.  I don't think it would have been fair to demand that of her, to give up her life for nine months to care for a decision she did not make.  I highly doubt that that is God deciding that it's your time to have a child; it's a person, usually with mental problems, who decides that he wants to have power of you.  Quite honestly, I find the idea - not the person who said, but the idea itself - of mixing God up with the reasons behind rape, as if it were a religious experience instead of a hateful, mind-shattering one.

Damn, and I swore I wasn't going to talk about rape.  Either way, I've had only minimal education in this and it was enough to affect me as much as it has.  I find it insensitive to expect a victim to cooperate with their attacker's responsibility.

Anyway.

no that wouldn't apply to every egg, b/c obviously, that egg wasn't fertilized.
and you're missing my point. by aborting the child, you're robbing them of being able to *develop* memories, and grow. and yes the world is over populated, i agree with you on that..so what should we do, start walking around killing each other? i don't see how just b/c the world is "crowded" that justifies murder, and yes abortion is murder, anyway you look at it.

i never presented the idea that every woman who was pregnant by rape had to give birth, i simply said that if i were in that position, i would. however, if you look at the abortion stats, rape isn't one of the most common reasons, it's ACTUALLY one of the least common.

and yes, people -are- looking to adopt, obviously not every orphan, but there are people wanting babies of their own.

you highly doubt that's God saying it's your time to have a child b/c your not Christian, and your beliefs differ from mine. and i never said anything about -keeping- the child, you're putting words in my mouth. i only said that if God allowed that to happen, then that's what He wanted. it's evident that we have different opinions though.

and here's a link of how abortions are done, in all their appalling glory.

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

look if you dare.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 01:31:47 am by twoleafclover » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2004, 01:53:36 am »
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I didn't say we should kill each other, simply that we should not overpopulate the earth willingly.  If we have a choice as to whether or not to have a child that will be sent off into the world alone, without parents, then I would say that that is the worse option.  I do not see how you jumped from me saying "the world is overpopulated" to "let's kill everyone."  I only said that putting depressed, unwanted children into a world that is already overpopulated is a bad notion, in my opinion.  It's not fair to the child because they will not only be alone, but the more children are born, the less resources available there will be, and hence the double negative side to having a child you do not intend to keep.

I never said rape was a common cause of abortion.  I know that a lot of women have "accidents" because they are not acting responsibly in their sexual pattern.  I was only responding to your comment that in your belief, women who are raped should keep the baby.  Usually, unless I state something specifically, I am not making an assumption.  Just something I'd like to specify for future posts.

I never said there weren't people looking to adopt.  I did say that the majority of children available for adoption are not actually adopted.  Unless you can show me proof backing up your claim - that at least 50% of children in the world up for adoption are actually adopted - then I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying.  People DO adopt - yes, I know this happens.  But it doesn't happen enough, and there are lots of children that spend their entire childhood in orphanages or social service places.  And it's not a happy existence.

I didn't say you should keep the child.  If I said "keep," I meant "not abort."

I am not going to get into debate with you over religion, since that is already taking place in another thread.  I'm curious to know something, though: do you agree that humans have free will?  I mean, if they do, then doesn't that mean that the humans are deciding what to do and not God?  If you don't think we have free will, then that's totally fine.  But I thought you said God should have a backup plan because free will was obviously not working.  How do you rationalise both beliefs?  I'm just asking, because it seems a bit contradictory, which means I am probably confusing or misunderstanding things.

That link was not informative.  I've seen many such pictures.  It didn't actually explain anything until the end.  It was only used to produce shock value without any actual explanation.  I saw no testimonials from women who said that they'd had an abortion, explaining what it was like.  Only pictures that said "God help us" and other such things.  That qualifies as propoganda, not as an explanation.

THIS is a link from Planned Parenthood about the different types of abortion, for those who actually want to know how the procedures are performed instead of just looking at pictures of aborted feti.  The procedures are not pleasant, I agree, but I found this to be more informative.

Heh, and thanks for the compliment, J'Adore. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 01:57:01 am by willikins » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 am »
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i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..


yes i agree with free will, but not murder. i don't feel anyone has the right to take/end another life. we're not God, only He can do that. i'm aware that these contradict each other, but that's just the way i feel. sorry if i confused you..

and i didn't post that link to inform everyone on the procedures, i posted it mostly for the pictures and the brief explanation of how it's done.


and one more thing, i do appreciate your being civil on this issue, i know abortion debates can sometimes get very brutal. so i thank you for your willingness to see and understand other peoples perspectives in a mature manner.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 02:21:41 am by twoleafclover » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2004, 02:29:17 am »
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I did not mean to convey the idea that overpopulation was a justification for abortion.  I meant that in general people should not be having a lot of children and if a child is not even wanted, then I do not see the benefit of giving birth to them and putting them in a situation where they will be miserable.  If a child were to be born into a family that wanted it, fine.  But I mean, look at China; they have strict rules now because they became TOO overpopulated.  I think we should be wary of the same thing happening all over the world.

Some people have huge families and that's great but the more people do this, the less people will have in general because there will be too many people and not enough world resources.

How do you know orphans aren't depressed?  In America, most children who were left by their parents are not happy, whether their parents put them up for adoption or passed away.  No child likes being without parents.  Divorce is hard enough, but to to not at all have the chance to grow up with the support and love and family experience of one's parents?  That just sucks, in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are not depressed as well.  But other people are not the topic here - unwanted children are.  So it's not really relevant to the conversation.

I thought you were trying to inform others since you prefaced the link with "this is how abortions are done."  Either way, I read up on my link and I know that it's a harsh procedure, but I remain pro-choice.  If a pill for abortion was developed and if clients were tested by a certified physician and guidance counselor of some sort, then I would be for it.  As it is now, from what I understand of abortion clinics, they do actually talk to you beforehand to make sure you want to go through with it.  It's not just an up-and-go thing, at least, not at the clinics.  They get what counseling is offered.  And if a person was emotionally scarred by their experience in getting an abortion, I'm sure that at least 75% of those people would not have a repeat of that situation and would seek to educate others.  People can still learn from their mistakes.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2004, 02:34:57 am »
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Quote from: Helix on November 18, 2004, 07:02:31 am   

I'm absoloutley pro-choice. I'm fifteen years old and if I were to get pregnent now and decided to keep the baby my world would be completely turned around and I definetly wouldn't be able to do many of the things I plan to do. I would probably also end up resenting my child, and no kid deserves that.
There are also a variety of other reasons, such as rape, I mean, who would want to give birth to their rapist's baby?

A person with a heart would never resent their child... ever (but I understand what you are trying to say).  If your were raped and happened to keep the baby you will love it no matter how it was "conceived" and what happened.  I think it's more the anger because of what happened to you (or should I say rape victim) and the hatred for the person that did it (should be dragged into the street and shot).  The child is innocent.  I would assume that after a woman has been raped that they do go for check-ups (therapy) and tests to make sure that they aren't pregnant and the doctors would advise them what to do there after.

It's a difficult situation and pray to God that nothing that terrible happens to me... I pray to God that it doesn't happen to any woman. 
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2004, 02:38:49 am »
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i do see your point, about the world being over populated, and i agree, we should take precaution. i just don't think abortion is the solution. if everyone who was having sex who didn't want a child at the moment used birth control, we wouldn't have the problem of too many orphans. i agree accidents will happen..but that wouldn't be half as many unwanted children as we had now..if everyone would just be responsible..that's all i'm trying to say
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2004, 02:48:43 am »
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Quote from: willikins on November 18, 2004, 07:42:17 pm   


Quote from: littlehafling on November 18, 2004, 02:10:37 pm   

People are like, "Well how am I supposed to know if he's the right one if I don't try having sex with him?"  And I'm just like, um...hello!  If he's the right one, you'll get married, and then it'll be perfectly okay to have sex with him!    Some people are just idiots.

To me it seems like you are overgeneralising.  I have had sex with someone even though I did not know he was the right one.  I was with him for three years - some marriages don't even last that long.  And marriage is not forever.  Have you been in a long-term relationship?  They are a lot of work, as anyone will tell you.  Even if you completely love the person, you may realise down the road that you do not work well together in a marriage.  Some people never get married for that very reason.  Relationships are not all the same.  It's great to have the ideal that everyone has a "one true love" but that's not true.  You have to date and be open to meeting new people, and sometimes, people do this through sex.  I don't think anyone thinks that sex is going to tell them who their true love is - I have NEVER heard anyone say that.  Some women are taken advantage of at parties or when they're walking alone at night.  And when I say "parties," I don't always mean that they've been drinking.

There are too many issues here to make general statements like I see most people making.  For one thing, not everyone wants babies; I'm sure at least a few women, if they had the money, would get their tubes tied and be done with that possibility.  For another, not everyone is irresponsible in their sexual partners.  I fully recognise that I did not have my first partner tested, so I got myself tested before carrying on with someone else (I also insisted that they be tested); a lot of people DO use protection, and they use it CORRECTLY.  For another, some people think they're in love and they have sex to be closer, not just to have random sex.  Not everyone who gets pregnant has done so because she is a cheap hooker of some sort.  There are many other things but it would take too long to type so I'll just wrap up my thoughts.

If you have a difference of opinion, that is completely okay.  But I completely resent the fact that you have categorised me as a "stupid idiot."  Yes, I have had pre-marital sex.  Yes, I intend to have more of it.  And yes, I use protection.  I am not going to tell you that you're a prude for not having pre-martial sex; I'm not going to call you a stupid idiot or repressed or any of those terms people normally get called.  I am going to respect your decision and wish you well with it.

Please think before you post, since what you say can be construed as an attack against others.

You took the words right out of my mouth, letter by letter...

Bravo!
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2004, 02:59:12 am »
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Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 12:45:02 am   


Quote from: twoleafclover on November 18, 2004, 11:27:16 pm   

think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.

Wouldn't you have to apply the same reasoning to every egg that a woman ever had, even if it didn't meet with sperm?  I've thought often of what would have happened if it hadn't been my egg that had been fertilised; it would not have made me sad, since I would not be conscious of it.  You're talking to us about remorse for if we hadn't been born, but if we hadn't been born, we would have nothing about which to feel remorseful, since we would not be alive.  What I mean is that feti (the plural of fetus), as far as I know, do not have memories.  If they are aborted, they will not know that they have missed out on something, so how can they feel pain about that?  As for physical pain, I really am not well-versed in what an abortion feels like from either the perspective of the mother nor the fetus, but I suspect that the fetus does not have a fully developed nervous system in order to feel pain.  Without full developed nerves - the things that control our physical, and sometimes, emotional feelings - there is not a logical way they would feel pain.  Again, I am not sure how developed their nervous system is, but if it is not developed, then one cannot make the argument that they would feel pain since they cannot feel anything.

I am talking about physical pain.  If you are talking about emotional pain, I don't agree but I'm not going to spend time arguing it.

I would like to say that the world is overpopulated as it is.  It IS overpopulated - that is actually a concrete fact.  And there are NOT a lot of people wanting to adopt.  I don't know which statistics you've been reading, but if you point me to them, that would help me believe your point.  Every article and every news show and special I've seen talks about a high percentage of unwanted orphans.  There are more unwanted children in orphanages than wanted ones, from what I've read and seen.  I would hate to bring another unwanted child into the world.  Concerning emotional pain, I think it would hurt just as much to feel discarded like that, to be forced into a life where you were stuck in an orphanage because no one wanted you, not even your own parents.  Because that's what you're doing - you're choosing their life for them.  Unless you can show me for a fact that there is only a small percentage of unwanted children in the world, I simply cannot agree with the idea you present.

Nevermind that it takes a huge mental toll on the mother.  A lot of women go into depression when they get pregnant.  I, personally, would feel utterly disgusted at the idea of carrying a child that I didn't want because some man found it to be his right to rape me.  That is unfair in my opinion.  I would not want to disgrace myself and my body that way; to be disgraced with the rape itself would be too taxing as it is.  I have only spoken to one rape victim and I would never wish that on anyone.  She would never have been able to keep the child, had she not been on birth control.  She probably would have committed suicide or some such thing.  I don't think it would have been fair to demand that of her, to give up her life for nine months to care for a decision she did not make.  I highly doubt that that is God deciding that it's your time to have a child; it's a person, usually with mental problems, who decides that he wants to have power of you.  Quite honestly, I find the idea - not the person who said, but the idea itself - of mixing God up with the reasons behind rape, as if it were a religious experience instead of a hateful, mind-shattering one.

Damn, and I swore I wasn't going to talk about rape.  Either way, I've had only minimal education in this and it was enough to affect me as much as it has.  I find it insensitive to expect a victim to cooperate with their attacker's responsibility.

Anyway.

Once again girl, letter by letter...

My brain is on snooze mode at the moment..
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2004, 03:44:09 am »
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Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 am   

i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..

I don't want to pick a fight or anything , but have a look at 3rd world countries, obviously mainly in Africa.  I'm from South Africa which is more of a 2nd world country if you want to put it like that.  It is devastating to see how many unwanted children there are, and even more devastating is that 95% of them have HIV or AIDS and nobody wants them.  This is another issue.  Mothers with AIDS conceiving and giving birth, there are drug treatments but they are way to expensive for most Africans.  What does one do then?  You have AIDS, you fall pregnant, your child is born with HIV/AIDS.  Do you have an abortion to "save" the child from death or do you have the child, raise him/her with your family and wait for them to die, or do you give them up for adoption and let them die in an orphanage?

It's actually so sad, the poverty in Africa which denies people the right to chose.

Oh well...
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2004, 03:55:15 am »
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I'm not racist so please don't think that that is the message I am trying to convey.

The woman I speak of in my previous post, unfortunately, mainly involve the black population in Africa.  A lot of the woman are raped and pressured into having sex by the men in tribes or communities.  Most of them don't have a choice and also cannot afford birth control, although some of them are free of charge.  The reason being that they cannot get transport to go to the clinics and get the "pill".  Sadly enough, condoms, a lot of them don't even know what it is and how to use it. 
I've actually heard that the black people in Africa think the the "white" people are lying about the HIV virus just to scare them and to "force" them to stop having children.  They think it is our way of "getting rid" of the black people in Africa...... What next?
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2004, 05:25:22 pm »
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Willikins, you are a very skillful debater, so I have to admit, I hesitate to debate you.  Even though I strongly believe and stand fof my convictions, I am not as articulate and can not express myself as well as you do.  I can't cover everything you have talked about but I wanted to respond to a couple of points.


Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 01:53:36 am   

I didn't say we should kill each other, simply that we should not overpopulate the earth willingly.  If we have a choice as to whether or not to have a child that will be sent off into the world alone, without parents, then I would say that that is the worse option.  I do not see how you jumped from me saying "the world is overpopulated" to "let's kill everyone."  I only said that putting depressed, unwanted children into a world that is already overpopulated is a bad notion, in my opinion.  It's not fair to the child because they will not only be alone, but the more children are born, the less resources available there will be, and hence the double negative side to having a child you do not intend to keep.


Is the world really overpopulated?  I know I am going to get totally flamed for that question.  The media teaches that the world in overpopulated and, certainly, parts of the world is.  But is the world in general overpopulated? I have never had anyone be able to give me enough evidence to truly believe that.  Personally, I think that reason is used far too often as an excuse to promote abortion.




Quote from: willikins on November 19, 2004, 02:29:17 am   



How do you know orphans aren't depressed?  In America, most children who were left by their parents are not happy, whether their parents put them up for adoption or passed away.  No child likes being without parents.  Divorce is hard enough, but to to not at all have the chance to grow up with the support and love and family experience of one's parents?  That just sucks, in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are not depressed as well.  But other people are not the topic here - unwanted children are.  So it's not really relevant to the conversation.



I am afraid I don't quite understand this train of thought. So because someone might be unhappy later in life, we should abort them when they are preborn babies?  Also, I can think of at several friends who were adopted as children who are very happy in life.  But, that is actually beside the point.  You don't kill someone because they might be unhappy some day.  That would pretty much eliminate all of us

I can't find the place where you said the baby does not have enough of a nervous system to feel the pain of an abortion (I am sorry if I am quoting you incorrectly or misunderstood).  How can we be sure of something like that?  Obviously the child can't tell us.  We do not know if they can feel pain or not. But, in a way, that is also beside the point.  I would not feel pain if someone shot me in the head while I was sleeping, but that doesn't make it right.

I truly believe that 99% of the time a child is aborted because they are an inconvenience.  I find this to be a selfish train of thought.  My children are not always "convenient" (I was up with one for an hour in the middle of the night after she had a nightmare last night.  I can't just take off and leave when ever I feel like it.) They certainly "cramp my style" at times.  But I don't get rid of them for that reason.  I know I am not a 15 year old, unwed girl that suddenly finds herself pregnant, but that can be avoided by avoiding sex.  I don't understand the line of thinking that says, "I want to have sex because it's fun. If I get pregnant, I can always abort."  I just don't get that!  Has our society really become that self-centered?

I know I have come across much stronger than I usually do.  The life of a preborn child is something I am passionate about.  There are other things people do that I think are "wrong" but they don't affect a child who can't even defend him/herself so I can live with those things.  However, this is something I really feel strongly about and felt like I had to "say my piece."  I hope I have not lost any of the friends I have made on this forum because I really like all of you, but I just can't apologize for anything I have said.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2004, 07:54:35 pm »
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Haha, I think that that's the first time I've been called a skillfull debater, Rose.  And anyway, when I read what someone writes, I try to get at the heart of what they're saying instead of focusing on the wording they use, though if it's completely out there then I might have trouble understanding.

Unfortunately for me, I do not have the links right now to show you articles about overpopulation.  I do have two friends who studied this in college so if you really want to know, I can e-mail them and see if they have any links.  But I know that even in Los Angeles, there IS overpopulation.  Maybe that doesn't correlate to the entire world, but there are overpopulated areas.  I'm going to use the China example again, just cause it's easiest.  China really IS populated.  I've seen special video things on the education channel and all that which discuss this very thing.  They are strict on birth control and seek to control the problem and sometimes even to inform others.  Does this mean that if a Chinese person wants to have more than one child that they should move?  I don't think that that's fair to the couple.  However, since they've had so many children in the past, they have to be monitored.  I know I wouldn't like it very much if someone told me I could only have a certain number of kids, and if we do not think about it now, we will be in a lot of trouble later.  Plus, if you use some logic, we know that humans are living longer and longer, whether it be due to diet or to exercise or to the medicines we develop.  Even two-hundred years ago, we died a lot sooner than we do now.  Yet we keep producing many children.  That means that we have MORE people in the world living LONGER.  Simple mathematics tells us that eventually, yes, the world will be overpopulated.

Again, if you want the links, I can try to e-mail my friends.

The second train of thought was prompted by twoleafclover's statement that there was no way to know whether orphans or unwanted children would lead a depressing life.  I countered that she didn't know that they would be happy.  And though it seems to be hard to get read data, I'll include a few links in case you want to peruse them:

Facts about international adoption

Okay, damn, I can't find out how many children are adopted of the ones who become adoptable.  Either way, from what I've seen, it doesn't seem that the majority are adopted.  I checked up on California and they said that only about 10,000 out of five million were adopted.  That's just in California.  Only 10,000 were ACTUALLY adopted.  I wish I could have found it in more general terms cause that would be more applicable, but when I say California overpopulated, I really do mean it.  With these statisitics, it becomes harder for me to condone letting the child grow and be born.

With the nerves, it basically comes down to this: we don't know.  You can say that I don't know for sure, and I can say that you don't know for sure.  Either way, nothing has been proven.  It is speculation until further notice.  That's why I only suspected that the child would not feel pain if he had no nerves, I did not present it as fact, only as what I thought.

I think most of the abortions that get put into the news are those which are "inconveniences."  For me, part of the factor in the whole idea of being pro-choice is whether or not the couple was informed.  I mean, you can still use condoms and spermicide and birth control pills and get pregnant.  It's not a very likely chance, but it still can happen - it's still a possibility.  However, I believe that if a person is educated and is using the items correctly, then there will not be any slip-ups and, if there are, that that person should be entitled to get rid of the fetus.  I know that I take every precaution I can not to get pregnant; I am safe with my partners, or as safe as I can be.  If I got pregnant even after doing all the correct things, and using all the 99.99999% effective items in the way they were meant to be used, then how have I been irresponsible?  By simply having sex?  I realise that some people would say yes, and good for them.  But these are two separate issues for me, because you have the fifteen year old who is either peer pressured or really just wants to have sex and experiment but does not know enough about her own body and ends up pregnant, and then you have someone like me who tries to keep updated and safe - I mean, you can stil get an STD (or an STI - I don't know which acronym is more popular nowadays) from anyone.  I am doing my best to counteract that, and to counteract pregnancy.  If I maked my decision based on information and research without intentionally getting pregnant, then I think that that is different than someone who went out drinking and had an orgy.

I don't know if I've explained that well since I am rather tired right now.    But I am not offended.  I am glad that you are challenging me to think more and to find more links (even though I'm not the best with that).  I like constantly thinking about the world and what I think is right or wrong.  So...good times.  Heh.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2004, 10:06:41 pm »
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Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 01:07:32 am   


you highly doubt that's God saying it's your time to have a child b/c your not Christian, and your beliefs differ from mine. and i never said anything about -keeping- the child, you're putting words in my mouth. i only said that if God allowed that to happen, then that's what He wanted. it's evident that we have different opinions though.

and here's a link of how abortions are done, in all their appalling glory.

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

look if you dare.

I highly agree with that. And i have heard of several instances where an abortion did not go correctly and the umm... doctor? took it into a back room and drowned it... (this is a true story, it was witnessed by a nurse that later that day quit the company)

Also, Willikins, I agree with you that the world is currently overpopulated. But throught history, when over population has occured, a massive disease has devistated certain countries (not trying to scare anyone, but that always does seem to happen) If we kill our next generation (or a large part of them) how will the human race carry on if something of this nature does occur (once again, i'm not making any predictions or anything... i'm just giving a "what if" )?

You also said a lot of Orphans are "unwanted"... that may be true, but if that is the case, why is i know so many people that want to adopt but can't? My aunt faught for years before she finally got custody to two little boys. (she could not have children of her own, and for years children were placed in her care and then taken away again due to the terribly ANNOYING system our government has provided for the adoption of orphans) I feel sometimes that i am "unwanted" in certain places, but that does not change the fact that i do experience happiness, and it does not change the fact that i can make a difference despite my "unwanted" presence. What if the baby you (not YOU, but an ... "x" mom) kills was meant to be the President of the United States. What if when they grew up they were going to find the cure for a terrible disease like aids? A life, even a "future" life has so many possibilities... what right does a mother have to take those rights away by ending her pregnancy?

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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2004, 12:21:03 am »
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Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 am   

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..

Quote from: Rose on November 19, 2004, 05:25:22 pm   

I am afraid I don't quite understand this train of thought. So because someone might be unhappy later in life, we should abort them when they are preborn babies?  Also, I can think of at several friends who were adopted as children who are very happy in life.  But, that is actually beside the point.  You don't kill someone because they might be unhappy some day.  That would pretty much eliminate all of us
Sure, there are lots of people who were adopted, had a good life and few things to complain about. It doesn't mean every possible future orphan should be aborted, if someone decides to carry out the baby and give it up for adoption I'd welcome the idea. Somehow pro-choice people are always being portrayed as if abortion should be the first option in case of unwanted babies. It should always remain the last in my opinion.
Rose, you can think of several friends who were adopted and grew up happy, but you know what? I have several friends who grew up miserably, were physically and sexually abused and actually wish they had been aborted. Keep in mind there are lots of those cases as well.
It's not just about being unhappy someday, "inconvenient" children often have to suffer a lot more than just being unhappy. There are daily child abuse reports flooding in. Babies were thrown out the window 'cause they were crying and bothered whoever wanted to watch TV? Doesn't sound responsible to me. I will not bother to show you a site with pictures of those abused children but it would be just as sad as the one twoleafclover posted.
Or what about pregnant women who cannot control their drug consumption? They shouldn't be able to have an abortion but give birth to the child? Ever seen a crack baby? Do you know what pain they have to go through? If those women decide to keep the baby and get help that's great, but let's face it, most of them won't.


Quote from: Rose on November 19, 2004, 05:25:22 pm   
I can't find the place where you said the baby does not have enough of a nervous system to feel the pain of an abortion (I am sorry if I am quoting you incorrectly or misunderstood).  How can we be sure of something like that?  Obviously the child can't tell us.  We do not know if they can feel pain or not. But, in a way, that is also beside the point.  I would not feel pain if someone shot me in the head while I was sleeping, but that doesn't make it right.
I live in Germany and the law here says if you consider to have an abortion it can't be done after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Anything after that is illegal and I think it's a good option as the baby does not feel any pain during that time.
Is it legal in the US to kill unborn babies even if the woman is already  9 months pregant? That, I agree, would be sick.

Does a fetus feel pain in an abortion?
This is not a simple question to answer, despite what then-President Ronald Reagan said in 1984: "When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing."  Anti-choice leaders claim that even 8-week old fetuses can feel pain because they react to touch and will pull away from invasive stimuli. The infamous anti-abortion film The Silent Scream from the mid-1980's depicts an ultrasound of a "painful" 12-week abortion, but this film has been dismissed as propaganda by medical experts, who say it is "riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, as well as misleading statements and exaggerations."

There is no direct scientific evidence that third-trimester fetuses feel pain, but we can infer they do based on indirect observations that newborn premature babies appear to feel pain. In 1987, an influential paper by a leading British expert on pain, Dr. K.J.S. Anand, helped persuade the medical community that premature babies feel pain. Prior to that, newborn babies needing surgery usually received minimal anesthesia. Anand demonstrated that painful stimuli to premature babies resulted in hormonal and other physiological stress responses, including increased blood pressure, heart rate, and respiratory rate. He also showed that premature babies given pain medication for surgery had lower complication and death rates than babies that went without.

Both findings indicated that premature babies likely experience some degree of pain (and therefore full-term newborns as well). Some researchers dispute this, however, since the stress response to pain stimuli is not a sure indication of a conscious perception of pain. Regardless, it has since become normal practice to provide pain medication to babies during surgery.

What of the claim by anti-choicers that even very early fetuses can feel pain? In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.

Although sporadic brain waves can be detected by about 21 weeks gestation, genuine continuous brain waves do not begin until about 28 weeks, indicating that the nerve circuits needed to carry pain impulses to the brain are not fully connected till then. This also marks the beginnings of conscious awareness, which is generally considered a requirement for experiencing pain.

Anti-choicers believe early fetuses feel pain because 8 week-old fetuses already have some peripheral nerve endings that are connected to the spinal cord, allowing them to react to touch and other stimuli. However, this is a simple reflex response that has no conscious awareness associated with it, such as when your lower leg jerks up when your knee is tapped. There is no experience of pain because the nerve circuit is not interacting with the brain. An analogy might be putting a light bulb in a socket and flipping the switch when there are no electrical wires connecting the two, and therefore no current either. Put another way, there is no necessary connection between fetal movement and mental awareness, as we know from the famous example of headless running chickens.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/fetal-pain.html

It's strange how the anti-choice people in this thread seem to think pregnancies will just not occur by avoiding sex. True, but does your personal choice of waiting until marriage also keep some sick person from raping you? Do you really want anyone who was raped to keep the baby or at least go through 9 months pregnancy? If abortion would be illegal what will happen in those cases? Will the woman be allowed to have an abortion? There will be proof needed that she actually was raped, this could be a debate in court rooms for weeks, until the baby is actually able to feel pain. Why would you wish all this on a pregnant woman that was raped?

One more thing, I don't think people will ever stop having abortions whether it's illegal or not. If it really has to be done however, it should be done safely.




Quote from: Jess_B on November 19, 2004, 10:06:41 pm   

Also, Willikins, I agree with you that the world is currently overpopulated. But throught history, when over population has occured, a massive disease has devistated certain countries (not trying to scare anyone, but that always does seem to happen) If we kill our next generation (or a large part of them) how will the human race carry on if something of this nature does occur (once again, i'm not making any predictions or anything... i'm just giving a "what if" )?
I could give you many "what ifs" from a pro-choice point of view, but this would lead to nowhere.
Anyway, it's weird to say we're killing our next generation. Who are you talking about? The masses of people that hate children and want to abort them? Trust me, the world is still full of those who would love to have a family one day. If there should be a massive disease (which could be AIDS for example, in some african countries a large percentage of the population is already infected) there will still be plenty of people who will survive. You do believe that human race begun with Adam and Eve, right? That's just two people. What about the flood? I don't think there were many survivors and still human race was able to carry on.
For those who favor evolution, I've read that all Europeans descend of only 7 women (who lived about 45,000 years ago, if I remember correctly).


Quote from: Jess_B on November 19, 2004, 10:06:41 pm   

What if the baby you (not YOU, but an ... "x" mom) kills was meant to be the President of the United States. What if when they grew up they were going to find the cure for a terrible disease like aids? A life, even a "future" life has so many possibilities... what right does a mother have to take those rights away by ending her pregnancy?
Jess, somehow you always end up bringing your personal belief into these debates. Let me ask you this, what if people aren't destined to be anything but become what they decide to be?
Or hey, what if that baby grew up to become a serial killer? (maybe I should open up a thread about whether you're for or against death penalty?)
Sorry, but these are just lame excuses.
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Re:Abortion Pill
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am »
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quote from NIX

Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 AM   
i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..


I don't want to pick a fight or anything , but have a look at 3rd world countries, obviously mainly in Africa.  I'm from South Africa which is more of a 2nd world country if you want to put it like that.  It is devastating to see how many unwanted children there are, and even more devastating is that 95% of them have HIV or AIDS and nobody wants them.  This is another issue.  Mothers with AIDS conceiving and giving birth, there are drug treatments but they are way to expensive for most Africans.  What does one do then?  You have AIDS, you fall pregnant, your child is born with HIV/AIDS.  Do you have an abortion to "save" the child from death or do you have the child, raise him/her with your family and wait for them to die, or do you give them up for adoption and let them die in an orphanage?

It's actually so sad, the poverty in Africa which denies people the right to chose.

Oh well... 

sorry i had to do it this way..my computers not letting me quote things right now, anyway..

no offense taken  i respect your opinions just as you do mine.. now to answer your inquiry,

i agree it is sad, about orphans with aids and such, and to let you know, and anyone else who cares, i do plan on going to africa when i get done with nuring in college, to help the sick children, that's one of the reasons i'm going. just so i don't look like i'm talking a bunch of hot air, i feel very passionate about this subject. africa is the only place i want to go, b/c i know there is much help needed there.

now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.

and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
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