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Celebrian
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #360 on: April 05, 2006, 10:24:17 pm »
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Quote from: Storyteller on April 05, 2006, 04:30:18 pm   

Celebrian, Aragorn DID set Frodo and Sam on his throne. Here's the quote. "..and taking them both by the hand, Frodo on his right and Sam on his left, he led them to the throne and setting them upon it, he turned to the men and captains who stood by and spoke..."

These little hobbits, the least of ME, sat on the throne of the king. That's SOMETHING!

Yes it was something.  So, then was Aragorn sitting on the ground?  Or on some low seat on the other side of either Eomer or Imrahil?  That's what confused me.  Where was he sitting if not on his throne?  (I suppose he could have been sitting on Frodo's and Sam's laps and what an amusing image that would be.  But somehow I don't think so. )


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It has always bothered me a bit that Eowyn dropped her desire for glory so easily when she fell in love with Faramir. I guess love makes you do strange things. LOL

That's a good point.  But, marrying Faramir who will be a Prince does not necessarily preclude glory.  And, with the major evil gone there is probably less of that type of glory to be had anyway.  And, she was in need of a reason to bother living and she found that in falling in love.  Or something.


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Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep.  Why?

I really don't know. It has always seemed like maybe it was a sort of "guy" thing, except for Eowyn, of course, but again. it's just my feeling.

At the point when they go to Isengard, Galadriel is still with them. (And when they talk about elves from Rivendell and Lorien, there could be other females who came for the wedding, right?)  As is Elrond, Arwen's father.  They said their goodbyes at Edoras and maybe that's why since it would be harder to have time together at Isengard and harder to have to say goodbye again?


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Perhaps it was because he was not one of the elves who went to Valinor to begin with. I am no elf expert by any means, but as I recall, Celeborn had never been to the Undying Lands, as Galadriel had, and therefore had less connection to it. He may have also felt he still had things to do in ME. He lived in ...let me think....Doriath, withon the Girdle of Melian in ME. They didn't meet until Galadriel came back from Valinor with her family after the Kinslaying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sounds about right to me, but I've only read the Sil once.  It just seems like if he is dreading being parted from Galadriel, then he could leave with her.  Although, maybe he feels that he needs to be there to oversee the end of Lothlorien and of the time of the elves in ME.  I wish that were explained more somewhere though.

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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #361 on: April 11, 2006, 05:53:49 pm »
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I'm double posting once again to post my comments on the last 3 chapters.

Homeward Bound

It is October 6, one year from the stabbing on Weathertop and there is an interesting conversation between Frodo and Gandalf.  Gandalf says that some wounds cannot be wholly healed, Frodo asks where he shall find rest and Gandalf does not answer.  (But, we know. )

Bree is locked up tight (and it's raining hard).  Overall gloomy.

Wolves and "dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things"  What are the dark shapes?  They are there now that the Rangers left.

Sam realizes that they will see in the Shire what he saw in the Mirror.

Gandalf mentions Saruman, says the hobbits don't need his help and goes to speak to Bombadil.

The Scouring of the Shire

Bill the pony kicked Bill Ferny as he left for good (Go Bill the pony! )

Frodo figures out the situation before the others.  He is older and more experienced.

Merry blows the horn of Rohan and plans the strategy for battle.  He was the one who planned the "conspiracy" at the beginning too.

Frodo tells the Gaffer and the Cottons that Sam is famous and there are songs about his deeds in front of Rosie. 

I can just hear Christopher Lee welcoming them home to Bag End.  Saruman talks about Frodo growing and he's right.

When Saruman dies, a grey mist rises and is then blown away by the wind like Sauron (and the Witch King I think).

They never thought the war would end at Bag End's door.

In this chapter, we see Frodo as the leader again as he was at the start.

The Grey Havens

Frodo become Deputy Mayor.

Sam uses Galadriel's gift; a mallorn tree replaces the party tree.  Important tree here as in Minas Tirith.

Mentions that Sam is torn in two twice.

Frodo says the line "The last pages are for you." at Bag End, not Grey Havens as in the film.

It's the second fall after leaving Rivendell, not the first as Elrond seemed to indicate when they left.

Sam realizes that he can't go with Frodo and Bilbo on his own.  It becomes part of Frodo's voiceover in the film.

Merry and Pippin came to the Grey Havens thanks to Gandalf's word.  Pippin jokes about Frodo trying to give them the slip again.

What Gandalf says to Pippin during the battle in Minas Tirith is actually what Frodo sees as he sails into the west "white shores and beyond them a far-green country under a swift sunrise."

Having just re-watched the films (finished ROTK Sunday night) in part looking for "mistakes" I've seen listed I did notice one that I don't recall reading.  Frodo and Sam do not have their elven cloaks on Mount Doom.  At some point on their way they are even shivering, but don't have them to put on (presumably Sam's and Frodo's if it wasn't taken had been thrown in the hole with the pans and backpack and such).  But, at the Grey Havens, they are wearing them again.  Do you think Galadriel gave them replacements?

Phew.  Done for now (until the appendices).
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #362 on: April 12, 2006, 08:48:13 am »
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Celbrian, I never saw your last post on the other chapters. I STILL don't get all the notices for this thread. I'm sorry.

TOlkien has a real thing about repeating dates. We'll see it a lot in the Appendices, especially in the Tale Of Years. I have long planned an essay on that. Maybe I'll do it once I finish my current series of stories. I'm sort of in the mood to work with some non-fiction.


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What are the dark shapes?
It never really says what they are, but I think they are more to set the mood. There are Ruffians all around now and I think Tolkien is trying to really let us know that things have changed in the Shire and its environs.


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Merry blows the horn of Rohan and plans the strategy for battle.  He was the one who planned the "conspiracy" at the beginning too.



Merry has always been my second favorite hobbit and this is why. He has such good organizational skills. The film kind of shorted him on that, I'm afraid, though I loved what Dom did with the rle.



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Frodo tells the Gaffer and the Cottons that Sam is famous and there are songs about his deeds in front of Rosie. 

I just love this fun bit! Frodo is playing Cupid here. He wants Rosie to know that Sam is a hero.

Rosie shows her good heart here. Sam has been gone for mor than a year. She could so asily have said, "You need to stay here a while and let the gentlehobbits take care of the mess." But she doesn't. She sends him back to Mr. Frodo. Rosie UNDERSTANDS Sam, and his devotion to his master. She is a good hobbit lass and will make Sam a fine wife.

Apparently, Lotho's evil began before Frodo ever left the Shire, so it wsn't all Saruman's doing. Farmer Cotton says Lotho began buying things (notably the mill) before he accquired Bag End.


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When Saruman dies, a grey mist rises and is then blown away by the wind like Sauron (and the Witch King I think).

I LOVE this bit! If you know the histories of these characters, it becomes even more interesting. Saruman and Sauron both came from Valinor and when Saruman's body died, it looked to the west for a moment, rather like it is pleading for readmittance, but it is utterly rejected. How appropriate!

I love that the Tooks stood up to the Ruffians, shooting any that came on their land, but I have always wondered why Paladin didn't do more to protect the SHire as a whole. He IS the King's steward for the area, as well as the head of the Shire Moot. I have a theory as to why and wrote about it in my story The Wait.

The Mayor of Michel Delving is the actual head of the Shirriffs, but poor Wil Whitfoot was one of the first to be put into the Lockholes and really had no chance to do much.

The Grey Havens has always been an extremely emotional chapter for me. Even now, it is difficult for me to talk about. I have SO MANY books in my life but the departure of Frodo is, to this day, the saddest scene in al literature (IMHO). I can't even hear the scene without tearing up, and I find that scene in the film, though much vetted, almost impossible to watch.

Elanor is born on the anniversary of the distruction of the Ring, March 25th. Again we see Tolkien repeating dates, but there is a good reason for this one. New birth parallels destruction.

Sam was courting Rosie before they ever left for the Quest. He left her behind, possibly forever (he said he wouldn't come back unless Frodo did) as well has his ailing father, all out of loyalty to Frodo and this is at the BEGINNING of the quest. That, my friends, is dedication.

This is the most difficult part of me. I wish we had gotten ALL of Frodo's speech to Sam, what I call his commission, in the film. I would have loved to here Elijah do the line, "All I have or might have had, I leave to you." (Rough quote) Frodo left Sam so much more than just money and a house. He left him the LIFE he would have had, and Sam lived it to the fullest. Frodo left him a list of things he must do (be mayor, heal the Shire, etc) and even named his children as far as Frodo could see them, and Sam fullfilled it all.

I'm tearing up just talking about it. I'd better stop now.

In the original versions of the book, there was no Rose and Sam went to the west with Frodo. Tolkien came to the conclusion, however, that Sam and Rosie's "rustic" love was essential to the story as it showed the theme of the book, that "every day life is flat without beauty and questing, but beauty and questing are pointless without everyday life to uphold." (Tolkien - "Letters")

If you have read the epilogue found in the HOME series, you know that Sam heard the call of the Sea long before his tasks in ME were done. It is my feeling that he lived his life torn in two.

Ok, I'm going to stop now. LOL Need a kleenex.

Hugs,
Rach



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Celebrian
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #363 on: April 27, 2006, 11:23:45 pm »
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OK.  I just managed to finish Appendix A.  Between finishing up a different book and real life I didn't have a huge amount of time.  Then, the appendix has a smaller font, I found it to be slower reading (more like a history text than the story itself - similar to the prologue that we discussed early on was tough for some people) and I kept feeling compelled to look at maps and occasionally at other lists or kings or dates or what have you, so it took forever.  But, I finished and now I'd like to post the comments I jotted down, so I'll feel like this section is complete and I'm ready to move onto the rest of the appendices starting tomorrow (I doubt I'll finish them by Sunday, but we'll see how it goes).

Anyway, I did not take extensive notes (too slow-going and I couldn't deal), but here's what I've got:

Luthien begot Dior, begot Elwing, begot Elrond, begot Arwen so Arwen is the great great-granddaughter of Luthien.

Elrond is the uncle of Aragorn with many "greats" thrown in.

Numenoreans had lifetimes thrice normal men, but still mortal; Valor could not take away the "Gift of Men."

Elendil and sons were leaders of the Faithful; 9 ships survived destruction of Numenor after they tried (under Sauron's counsel) to reach the Undying Lands.  They brought a seedling of Nimloth and the 7 Seeing-Stones (Palantiri).

The Lord of Angmar was "not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths."  Was he already a wraith when he was the King of Angmar?  I thought he was the Kinf of Angmar and became a wraith later after having one of the 9 rings for a while to eat at him.

Elves came from Lindon to help against Angmar.  Is Lindon in the west by the Grey Havens, etc.?

Lords and Kings of Dunedain (of Cardolan) are buried in the Barrowdowns and evil spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur came.

Glorfindel fought with Gondor to destroy the Witch-King/Angmar.  It was he who made the statement that no man would kill the witch-king.  After that, Witch-King went to Mordor, gathered the wraiths and took Minas Ithil.

"Thorongil" (Aragorn) served Ecthelion (steward of Gondor) after serving Thengel of Rohan; he burned ships of the Corsairs to prevent an attack in the south and overthrew the captain.  Denethor was the only one who didn't love Thorongil; also trusted Saruman more than Gandalf.  Did he guess that Thorongil was actually the King?  Was far-sighted.

Sauron got the Palantir in Minas Ithil (akin to the one in Minas Tirith, which was not used by stewards until Denethor).

Denethor's wife Finduilas was from Dol Amroth and died young.

When Aragorn and Arwen meet, he is singing the Lay of Luthien, which he also sings (parts of) in FOTR book and film.

Arwen comments about Luthien (when Aragorn mistakes her): "maybe my doom will be not unlike hers." More foreshadowing since this is years before she falls for him.

Aragorn traveled far east and south among good/bad Men.

Of the Gift of Men it says that Men are not bound to the circles of the world; "beyond them is more than memory."  (Does this basically mean that they will meet again in heaven - or whatever version that takes - for eternity together?)

Aragorn chooses his times to die.  Arwen dies at Cerin Amroth in Lorien.  Not buried with other queens (where are they since they do not seem to be with their husbands in Minas Tirith?) and doesn't go to Rivendell (are her brothers still there?)

No great love between Eotheod and Dwarves (like Eomer/Gimli early on).

Thengel married a woman of Gondor; Eowyn is like her grandmother.

Eomer married the daughter of Imrahil.

Rings could not enslave dwarves which frustrated Sauron.

Thorin met gandalf in Bree, which led to the events in The Hobbit.

The Dwarves and Men in the north also battled Sauron's forces at the time of the Battle of the Pelennor.

I know that jumps around a bit and skips a lot of stuff, but I was being stingy with my notetaking, I guess.


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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #364 on: April 28, 2006, 08:05:39 am »
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You've covered the main points, Celebrian, and my time is short too, but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.



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Valor could not take away the "Gift of Men."

This is a VERY important point because it answers a major point of debate among Tolkien scholars and fans, whether or not mortals in the Undyling Lands live forever there. They do not, and Tolkien was very explicit about that. His point of view is that death is a GOOD thing, not a bad one, very different from the 21st century view, so people like to beleive that Frodo and Sam and Bilbo just go on and on, even some people who have written books and are SUPPOSED to be knowledgable. ARGH! Gets on my very last nerve!  Mortals in the Undying Lands grow old and die there, though they are allowed to choose when they die, to give up their lives voluntarily. I like to imagine that Frodo and Sam chose to do that together, just one more journey for them to make together.



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Was he already a wraith when he was the King of Angmar?


Outstanding question and one I had never considered. I don't think he was a wraith until afterward. Remember that the 9 rings were given to "kings of men". That would seem to indicate that they were ALREADY kings when they received the rings. Hmmm... I can't find anything in my encyclopedias about it, but I'll check again later.


Quote:
Of the Gift of Men it says that Men are not bound to the circles of the world; "beyond them is more than memory."  (Does this basically mean that they will meet again in heaven - or whatever version that takes - for eternity together?)

It certainly means they will go to Heaven. Tolkien was a devout Catholic (raised by his uncle, a Jesuit priest) and made it quite clear that men "escaped the circles of the world" to a place that was surely Heaven. Elves dwell in the Halls of Mandos, and it said that they didn't understand where men went. Elves did NOT beleive that dwarves went anywhere at all after death (or so I understand from the Silm) which made them sort of a lesser life form in elvish eyes and could have been a cause of the problems between the two groups.



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Not buried with other queens (where are they since they do not seem to be with their husbands in Minas Tirith?) and doesn't go to Rivendell (are her brothers still there?)

I don't know. Maybe she felt the need to be in a land of her people at the end. That is the way I am leaning, anyway.
It is quite interesting that of the four members of the fellowship who married (Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, and Sam) NONE are buried with their wives. You have already noted where Arwen and Aragorn are. Merry and Pippin are ultimately place on either side of Aragorn and Sam of course, is laid to rest somewhere in Valinor (hopefully at Frodo's side, where he always choose to be.)

As a wife, I'm not sure I'd like that. LOL

Great job of note taking, btw!

Can't wait to get to the Tale of Years. That's my FAVORITE part of the Appendices. It's where you get the real end of the story!

Hugs,
Rach
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Celebrian
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #365 on: May 03, 2006, 02:21:55 pm »
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I finished the appendices a couple of days ago and haven't had time to post my comments.  Not sure I have enough time for all of it now, but I'm going to at least get started.  Partially by choice and partially by subject matter, I didn't take huge numbers of notes on most of it, but all together it comes out to a decent amount (most on the Tale of Years).  A few of these things have come up before, but I noted them anyway.  So here goes:

The Tale of Years
Second Age:
Why didn't Gil-Galad warn Celebrimbor and the smiths at Eregion about Sauron if he mistrusted him?

Nazgul appear well after the Witch-King was mentioned battling Earnur, so he was still human King at the time of the attacks.  Wonder what freaked Earnur's horse out so much about him in that case?

Third Age:

Gil-Galad gave his ring to Elrond before he died.
Cirdan saw deeper than any other in Middle Earth and gave his to Gandalf knowing his task; It's the Ring of Fire to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

In 1636 the White tree dies during the Great Plague and a seedling is planted.  In 2852 White tree dies but no seedling can be found so it is left standing.

It lists the births of the 3 Ring-Bearers, but not Merry and Pippin.

Aug 3018 - Gollum is in Moria and can't get out the West Gate.  But, don't they see Gollum before Moria, like by Buckleberry Ferry?  I thought the glowing eyes came up there or other places before Moria.

It was 2 months from the Council of Elrond until setting out.

Gandalf was dead for almost 3 weeks! Then, 3 day trance before being flown to Lorien.

This calendar includes Feb 30. 

The Ents were fighting in Rohan, Elves in Lorien and Mirkwood, Dwarves and Men at Erebor, while the battles were going on in the south.  Three assaults on Lorien.

After the Shadow passed, Celeborn lead and Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur.

Mirkwood was renamed Wood of Greenleaves; After Galadriel left, Celeborn went to Imladris with the Sons of Elrond.

It takes Arwen 9 days from Edoras to Minas Tirith!

Saruman reaches the Shire on Bilbo and Frodo's birthday.

End of the War of the Ring on November 3.

Frodo is ill on March 13 (Shelob's sting) and October 6 (Stabbing by Witch-King).

Elanor born on March 25 (anniversary of the Ring's destruction).

Why does the 4th age start on March 25 2 years later?  Not with the Ring's desctruction, crowning of the King, or the departure of the three rings, even though the last is listed as the end of the 3rd age.

October 6, Samwise returns to Bag End.

Elessar gives Sam the Star of the Dunedain.

Sept 22, Sam leaves Bag End for the last time (like Frodo left on that date for Crickhollow, etc), visits Elanor then goes oversea.

March 1 is the date of Elessar's death (as well as his birth); Merry and Pippin are set beside him in Rath Dinen.

Appendix C:
I thought it was interesting that we know that Merry had at least one son because he and Pippin leave their titles, etc to their sons when they leave the Shire for the last time, but his kids are never listed in the Tale of Years of the Family Trees.

Appendix D:
The calendar stuff is interesting, but I don't have many specific comments.  I like the inclusion of idioms and such relating to dates. 

They made a Festival Day for Frodo's Birthday.

Party on April 6 - For Sam's Birthday? Or the first flowering of the Golden Tree.

On November 2 the Horn of the Mark is blown in Buckland with bonfires and feasts on the anniversary of the first blowing in the Shire.

Appendix E:
At the end of words, F makes a "v" sound, so shouldn't Gandalf be pronounced Gandalv?  (Not how I do it or how it is pronounced in the films.)

That's my only comment because I found the linguistic stuff rather tough going.

I'm going to stop here for now.  I have a series of comments on the final appendix, so I'll come back and post those when I have some time.  Hopefully later today, but maybe tomorrow.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #366 on: May 03, 2006, 09:35:44 pm »
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I'm back to finish up with my notes and I'm double posting because the last entry was so long already.  Given that this thread is likely to end pretty soon, I assume that's not too big a deal.  If it is, then my sincere apologies to the mods and anyone else who is affected.

Appendix F:
"In the hearts of the Exiles the yearning for the sea was an unquiet never to be stilled; in the hearts of the Grey-elves it slumbered, but once awakened it could not be opposed."  Hence, Galadriel told Legolas that if he saw the sea he would never be content again (or whatever she said).

Westron = Common Speech started in Pelargir with dealings between Men from Westernesse (Numenor) and lesser men.

The Rohirrim were from "lands between the Gladden and the Carrock."  I had actually thought they were from further north than that.  Not sure why. OOPS!

Wild Men of Druadan Forest and Dunlendings had their own languages.

Hobbits used Men's languages, including one akin to the Rohirrim before entering Eriador.  Rohirrim holbytla means 'hole-builder.'

Sauron tried to make Black Speech the language of all who served him, but failed. 

Khazad means "dwarves" in their language, which is kept secret from all other races.

Hobbits used used rustic form of Westron and 'familiar' as opposed to 'deferential' forms of reference.  This made Pippin seem princely in Minas Tirith (must be high-born to speak to Denethor, et al that way).

Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn aried their speech depending on who they spoke to, because they were more learned than other characters.  Aragorn, of course, was trying to disguise his origins at times so it was necessary for him.

Samwise means 'halfwise, simple' and his name was orignially Banazir.

Moria means Black Chasm in Elvish; Khazad-dum means mansion of the Khazad.  Dwarrowdelf in the Common Speech means Dwarf-delving.

It is said of the elves "their dominance passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world." which is the same as the statement in Aragorn and Arwen about there being more than memory beyond the circles of the world.

King of Rohan called Hobbits 'kud-dukan' which means 'hole-dweller.'

OK.  I think that's it.  I have closure of a sort, but I would like to see what other people have (realistically, what Rach has ) to say.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #367 on: May 11, 2006, 02:04:19 pm »
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But, don't they see Gollum before Moria, like by Buckleberry Ferry?  I thought the glowing eyes came up there or other places before Moria.

You could be right, but I never took it that way. I thoght the glowing eyes here were wood creatures, or maybe even their own fears. Both interpretations are certainly possible.


Quote:
Elanor born on March 25 (anniversary of the Ring's destruction).

DOn't you just LOVE the way Tolkien repeats dates? I HAVE to write a paper on that when I get time. Maybe that would be a good summer project... It's also great that he had the destruction of the ring and the birth of a new life on the same date.


Quote:

October 6, Samwise returns to Bag End.
On the anniversary of the attack at Weathertop. How appropriate!



Quote:
Sept 22, Sam leaves Bag End for the last time (like Frodo left on that date for Crickhollow, etc), visits Elanor then goes oversea.

I hope everyone takes note of this. It IRRITATES ME NO END that a couple of the well thought of Tolkien encyclopedias state that Sam was the only Ringbearer who didn't sail. I mean, mistakes happen, but if you are going to call yourself an expert, READ THE ENTIRE BOOK! Tolkien is CRYSTAL CLEAR about this and in several places.


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Party on April 6 - For Sam's Birthday? Or the first flowering of the Golden Tree.
FOr Sam's birthday, probably. Few hobbits would fully appreciate the value of the mallorn tree. It was, I beleive, the only one in existance outside elvish lands. Galadriel REALLY gave Sam a wonderful gift in this, as well as the soil.


Quote:
Samwise means 'halfwise, simple' and his name was orignially Banazir.

In "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", Tolkien elaborates and clarifies this a bit. In discussing the translations and origins of Sam's name he says it means, "half, almost". TO me this seems to say that Samwise means "almost or becoming wise". That meaning is a perfect fit, since Tolkien says that Sam is the character who evolves the most over the course of the books.

Frodo means "wise by experience", also terribly appropriate. Merry means "happy" and Peregrin means "wanderer".


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Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn aried their speech depending on who they spoke to, because they were more learned than other characters.  Aragorn, of course, was trying to disguise his origins at times so it was necessary for him.

I do that, too! Don't judge my writing by my emails or psots. LOL


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Hobbits used Men's languages, including one akin to the Rohirrim before entering Eriador.  Rohirrim holbytla means 'hole-builder.'

It is said that the hobbits and the Rohirrim once shared territory. It's an interesting idea.

Did you notice that of all the members of the fellowship who married, not one was buried with his wife?

Aragorn was buried in Minas Tirith with Merry on one side and Pippin on the other. Sam is presumably buried on Tol Eressea, hopefully at Frodo's side.

Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Celebrian. What would we do without you?

Hugs,
Rach
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #368 on: May 12, 2006, 09:43:57 pm »
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I thoght the glowing eyes here were wood creatures, or maybe even their own fears. Both interpretations are certainly possible.

Interesting.  Because from Moria on, I think every time glowing eyes are mentioned it's Gollum (unless I'm forgetting some instances which is quite possible).  Sometime I should look at it again, but not at the moment.  I'm exhausted and I don't have FOTR right here.

Edit to add: OK I looked it up.  On the second page of A Conspiracy Unmasked (page 97 in my book), The hobbits step off Buckleberry ferry and look back.  "On the far stage, under the distant lamps, they could just make out a figure: it looked like a dark black bundle left behind. But as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as if searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps.
'What in the Shire is that?' exclaimed Merry.
'Something that is following us, 'said Frodo."

This sounds very much like Gollum to me.  Maybe he lost them in the wild with Strider or when they were in Rivendell and found them again in Moria.  OK This is now another new edit.  Maybe he actually lost them right there because after that they headed into the Old Forest and I can't imagine that he would have been in there without Tom Bombadil knowing about it.

I think the mallorn tree would be important not because they understand the significance of its being the only one outside Elven lands, but because it replaced the Party tree which was an important landmark and because it coincided with the births of so many golden-haired children.  Or something like that.  But, given that Sam was mayor for so long, I think it would make sense that they'd celebrate his birthday as a holiday.


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I do that, too! Don't judge my writing by my emails or psots. LOL

Ditto.


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Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Celebrian. What would we do without you?

And, I will say exactly the same to you, Rach: Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Storyteller. What would we do without you?  I have learned a lot from your knowledge and from things you noticed that I didn't.  And, I appreciate the discussions we've had very much.   Thank you for not leaving me to talk to myself.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 09:38:06 pm by Celebrian » Report to moderator   Logged


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