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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #345 on: March 13, 2006, 11:22:07 am »
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I think I'm forgetting something.  Who thought it was a meteor?

I was referring to this quote. It's on page 53 in my copy.

"Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor"

I take this to mean that some of the men in the area believed the stone had fallen from the sky (a meteor is the picture I get when I read it) but the ones who rememebered the old knowledge knew it had actually been brought from Numenor.

I could certainly be wrong, but that's my interpretation.


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think he saw him as the king and not as the ranger that he still is at this point.  And, probably as more like Elendil since he has the sword and Sauron would certainly remember Elendil.


I'm sure he would, and since the Stones were originally given to Elendil, they did, by rights, belong to Aragorn, if to any one. He had the right and the power to use them.

In reading the Silm right now, I'm getting a fresh look at the history of Aragorn. It's fascinating really, though for a superior being, elves DO fuss a lot! LOL  We are about to get to Numenor. I can't wait to reread it. I haven't read the Silm since the movies and having the visuals puts a different light on things, I think.

Hugs,
Rach


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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #346 on: March 13, 2006, 09:35:04 pm »
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Thanks for the quote explaining the meteor.  I think your interpretation is correct.  I just didn't recall the quote.  (My mind is a sieve.)  I read the Silm after seeing the films, but I had quite a tough time with it.  In fact, hubby and I both found that it was a good insomnia cure at parts when we were having trouble sleeping.   That's not to say that I didn't like it as a background for the world of ME, etc., but it was not a quick or easy read.  I would like to go through it again and probably with discussion (maybe in the fall?), but I might have to get a copy because it might take to long to depend on borrowing from the library (depending on how quickly we decide to try to read through it - I can get it for 2 3-week periods, so 6 weeks total before I need to return it).

And, since I want to be sure not to force myself to double post, I am going to move on to comments on this week's chapters.

The Siege of Gondor

Pippin is with Beregond and witnessing the return of Faramir as Frodo and Sam are at the crossroads seeing the sun on the king's head.

Pippin felt Gandalf and Denethor's "glances were like blades from eye to eye, flickering as they fenced."  Reminds me of Star Wars light sabers.

Gandalf has the line "Just a fool's hope, as I have been told." by Denethor a bit earlier.  The last half is not in the film, though the first part is.

Sauron is rushing things after seeing Pippin and Aragorn in the palantir.

Gandalf is upset to hear that Frodo and Sam headed to Cirith Ungol, but says "a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend."  As Gollum certainly does in the end.

Faramir has the line "But if I should return, think better of me." and Gandalf says that Denethor loves him and will remember that before the end.  (Both in film too.)

Denethor saw the loss of Cair Andros in the palantir.  The palantir makes the flickering light in the tower summit.

Denethor thinks that Sauron now has the Ring.

Denethor tells his men to follow Gandalf if they choose.  That doesn't happen in the film if I remember correctly.  Gandalf just takes over because Denethor is too far gone to lead.

After Grond breaks the gate, the Witch King (Nazgul) rides in on a horse to meet Gandalf on Shadowfax.  Wasn't he on Fell Beast in film.  Also, Pippin watches from nearby.  Isn't he on the horse in film?  There is no breaking of Gandalf's staff here.  Standoff is ended by the horns of the Rohirrim (and lightening in the sky? The Witch King seems to realize darkness is breaking too soon).

The Ride of the Rohirrim

Merry finds the wait unbearable as Pippin does.

Errand-runners were killed so the Red Arrow never reached Gondor and they don't know that Rohan is coming.

Darkness is breaking (early); light and the smell of the sea of coming (foreshadow Aragorn's entry to the battle).  First smelled by Ghan-buri-Ghan.

The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Eowyn refers to Nazgul as dwimmerlaik (what does that mean?).

Theoden talks to Merry, not Eowyn (who is unconscious).

Eomer has the line "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!" (In film, doesn't Theoden get that line or something very similar?)

Merry's sword from the Barrow-Downs was the only one that would have wounded the nazgul King so much, since it was made by the Dunedain in the north who fought him when he was at Angmar.

Eomer sees Aragorn's standard (made by Arwen) on the lead ship and they meet again on the battlefield (though all the hosts of Mordor between them).

men  from the south came with Aragorn and his companions, not the Army of the Dead who had already been released for dealing with the Corsairs.

The Pyre of Denethor

Dies clasping the palantir, lying n the bed he made for him and Faramir.  Not falling of the mountain.

Gandalf, Beregond and Pippin arrive at the Houses of Healing with Faramir as the Witch King is killed by Eowyn.

I didn't write this down before, but it is interesting that Gandalf doesn't do much fighting,  His role was to rally others, not to actively fight himself.

I also think I really need to rewatch the films since I can't always remember what is the same and what changed. 
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #347 on: March 21, 2006, 06:27:22 pm »
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OK.  I'm double posting.  But, it's been over a week and I'm talking about the next set of chapters.  And, I'm really hoping (begging, pleading) that someone(s) will pop in and talk to me about these.  Please, please, please.

The Houses of Healing

Merry and Pippin here are similar to Frodo and Sam - Pippin wishes he could carry Merry, puts his head in his lap, holds his hands; things are dark andcold for Merry like for Frodo.

Merry - "It's not always a misfortunte being overlooked." It was a good thing with teh Witch King, but he should have been carried into Minas Tirith.

I like Gandalf's line about if Merry had not come "far more grievous woild the evils of this day have been."  Yay for Merry!

"Hands of the king are the hands of a healer."  We know that Aragorn knows about healing, this shows up much more in the EE than the theatrical release.

Aragorn chooses to furl his banner, give his Star to the sons of Elrond and camp outside the city as captain of the Rangers because he felt it was not time to enter the city as king.

Eomer did not realize that Eowyn was still alive; neither he nor Imrahil knew that Denethor had died. Imrahil is in charge until Faramir recovers, but Gandalf will lead them all.

Aragorn says Eowyn loves Eomer more truly "but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought" which he says in Dunharrow to her in the film.

The hobbits are learning a lot more about the world outside the Shire as Merry indicates "Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not."  Kind of like the Rangers guarding the Shire earlier.

The Last Debate

Gimi thinks that Minas Tirith needs some better stonework.  Legolas that it needs more gardens and birds.  Typical for their races.

Gandalf suggests using their armies as bait, to continue occupying thet Eye as Aragorn started by looking into the Palatir.

7000 head toward Black Gate (though fewer arrive there since some do other things). Most of the Rohirrim go to fight the army behind them to the north that they heard about earlier.

Seems inconvenient for Aragorn to travel so far with an unsheathed sword. 

The Black Gate Opens

Merry is being left behind again; this is Pippin's chance to try to match his deed as representative of Hobbits at the Black Gate battle.

They put the King's head back in place at the cross-roads.

I know it was talked about on the DVD extras about whether it should be a single gate or two gates that open, but there is a quote "two cast iron doors of the Black Gate" which should answer the question.  Is that what it ended up in the film?  Is it completely pathetic that between reading and remembering the debate I can't recall what it actually looked like?  I re-watched FOTR, but not TTT or ROTK yet.

Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron hold eyes for a bit.  Reminded me of Pippin's description of Gandalf and Denethor.  Aragorn does not cut his head off.

The sun comes through the haze "a sullen red, as if it were the ending of the day, or the end maybe of all the world of light."  This kind of goes along with the sunset/end of the age/theme I talked about earlier.

Pippin hears others say that the Eagles are coming., but doesn't say it himself.  He killed a troll (which Aragorn does in the film), which is not quite as impressive as Merry's deed, but is still pretty impressive for a hobbit.  I mentioned a long time ago (early in TTT I think) that there Merry was talking about Pippin keeping his head (dropping the brooch for the others to find, untying his hands) and hoping he'd be as brave.  I think Merry surpassed Pippin, but Pippin has done several brave and useful things, too.

OK.  That's it for these chapters.  I hope I won't be only talking to myself here.

*down on knees begging for some company in this thread*
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #348 on: March 21, 2006, 08:08:34 pm »
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Celebrian,
I could have SWORN I posted on the last chapters. I guess I missed them because I was sick. I'll post tomorrow, I promise!

Hugs,
Rach
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #349 on: March 21, 2006, 08:52:36 pm »
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Thanks Rach.  I'm very glad that I am not just talking to myself. 
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #350 on: March 22, 2006, 08:23:48 am »
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Well, I DO apologize. I must have been delusional with fever because the more I think of it, the more I remember posting. I wonder if I accidently hit the wrong key at the end? I might have, considering how I was feeling at times. I am sorry.

The Houses of Healing

Good point about Merry and Pippin being like Frodo and Sam. I had never really thought od it that way, but you're right. Another thing that I thought was much more obvious in the movie than the book, but certainly present in both, was the role reversal of these characters. Through the first part of the story, Pippin has been the child, the one Merry sort of looked after. Suddenly, here in the alien city, Pippin has grown to become the caretaker. An interesting juxtaposition when you think of it.

This is one of my favorite chapters! I love the relationship between Merry and Pippin here, and the beautiful knowledge of the king that we gain. Tolkien also infuses this heavy chapter with humor, a lovely contrast.

Did you ever notice that Merry’s symptoms are almost exactly like Frodo’s after being stabbed on Weathertop?

It is impressive that in the midst of all the wreck and ruin of the battle’s aftermath, Gandalf came HIMSELF to pick up Merry and take him to the Houses. He is well aware of Merry’s heroism and of his responsibility to care for the hobbits. Remember that earlier he commented that every wizard should have a couple of hobbits in his care, just to teach him patience. LOL

Aragorn is wise not to go into the city and make his claim right away. It could have caused trouble that Minas Tirith didn’t need at that moment.
Aragorn slips in, however, undercover, to care for the sick, leaving Prince Imrahil in charge. I wish we could get leaders with so little desire for power these days.

Here's another interesting bit: Aragorn uses Sam’s name for athelas to Ioreth and that is the name she knows. People aren't so very different, though they live so far apart, are they?

The poem here says “Life to the dying, in the king’s hand lying.” Does this mean athelas only works for the king? I think it might, which would explain why the people of Gondor didn’t know it had any healing virtue.

Doesn’t it seem to you that everyone smells something different when athelas is boiled? Ioreth smells the roses from a youthful memory but Pippin smells an orchard full of bees.

Here is one of my FAOVRITE lines in the entire book and one I have quoted more times than I can count. “It is best to love first what you are fitted to love.”
The speech that includes the above line is Tolkien’s clearest iteration of the main theme of the book, that every day lie is nothing without beauty and questing and beauty and questing are nothing without every day life to uphold.

The Last Debate

Isn’t in interesting how Legolas and Gimli, on their walk through Minas Tirith, plan to help Aragorn in their own way once he comes into his kingdom? Gimli thinks it needs stone masons and Legolas thinks it needs more gardens! LOL

You will remember that Galadriel told Leggie back in Lothlorien to beware the gulls. Now that he has heard them, he feels the irresistible call of the Sea. This is signifigant for Sam was well. In the Home series, in the original epilogue, at the very end, Sam is closing the door to Bag End and hears “the sigh and call of the Sea.”

Sauron can not make the palantiri lie, but he CAN make them show only the things he wants them to. That is how he drove Denthor mad.

The Black Gate Opens

All through this chapter, Tolkien prepares us for the return to Frodo and Sam by mentioning them or in some way reminding us of them. Here he mentions that Aragorn’s party stops at the Crossroads and sees the King with his crown.
They also pass the place where Faramir’s men captured Frodo and Sam.
The Emyn Muil is mentioned. This just goes on and on.

Did you notice that the Mouth has forgotten his real name, just like Gollum? He has been depersonalized, as Tolkien believed that industry did to people.

The Mouth had not only Frodo’s mithril vest, but also Sam’s sword, which Sam had laid beside Frodo in place of Sting.

Gandalf is well aware that they do not have Frodo when he turns down the Mouth’s offer. If he had, Sauron would have already have stuck them all down and they wouldn’t be having that conversation.

Poor Pippin wishes that if he had to die, he and Merry could die togther.

I think there WERE two gates, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm suually pretty emotional by this point so I could be wrong.

We're back to Frodo and Sam again. WHOOPEE!!!!!!!!!!

Hugs,
Rach



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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #351 on: March 22, 2006, 01:10:31 pm »
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Quote from: Storyteller on March 22, 2006, 08:23:48 am   

Well, I DO apologize.

No apology necessary.  I'm just glad you're here now.


Quote:
Another thing that I thought was much more obvious in the movie than the book, but certainly present in both, was the role reversal of these characters. Through the first part of the story, Pippin has been the child, the one Merry sort of looked after. Suddenly, here in the alien city, Pippin has grown to become the caretaker. An interesting juxtaposition when you think of it.

I agree.  I think I noticed this too, but didn't write it down, although I notice that we write down a lot of the same things.


Quote:
It is impressive that in the midst of all the wreck and ruin of the battle’s aftermath, Gandalf came HIMSELF to pick up Merry and take him to the Houses. He is well aware of Merry’s heroism and of his responsibility to care for the hobbits. Remember that earlier he commented that every wizard should have a couple of hobbits in his care, just to teach him patience. LOL

Great observation.  I had thought about the fact that Gandalf was not directly involved in the battle since he was busy saving Faramir and then Merry, but hadn't remembered that quote.


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I wish we could get leaders with so little desire for power these days.

Sigh.


Quote:
Here's another interesting bit: Aragorn uses Sam’s name for athelas to Ioreth and that is the name she knows. People aren't so very different, though they live so far apart, are they?

The poem here says “Life to the dying, in the king’s hand lying.” Does this mean athelas only works for the king? I think it might, which would explain why the people of Gondor didn’t know it had any healing virtue.

Yes, the common name for it is known in many different places.  I hadn't thought that the athelas might only work for the king.  Don't some older people use it too?  But, that is a really interesting idea.  Hmmmm.


Quote:
Doesn’t it seem to you that everyone smells something different when athelas is boiled? Ioreth smells the roses from a youthful memory but Pippin smells an orchard full of bees.

Yes, I think that was part of the point.  That each person smells what they would find comforting.


Quote:
Here is one of my FAOVRITE lines in the entire book and one I have quoted more times than I can count. “It is best to love first what you are fitted to love.”
The speech that includes the above line is Tolkien’s clearest iteration of the main theme of the book, that every day lie is nothing without beauty and questing and beauty and questing are nothing without every day life to uphold.

I didn't pick up on this at all.  Thanks for pointing it out.

The Last Debate


Quote:
You will remember that Galadriel told Leggie back in Lothlorien to beware the gulls. Now that he has heard them, he feels the irresistible call of the Sea. This is signifigant for Sam was well. In the Home series, in the original epilogue, at the very end, Sam is closing the door to Bag End and hears “the sigh and call of the Sea.”

Didn't know that about Sam.  Interesting.  But, I knew it about Legolas.

The Black Gate Opens


Quote:
Did you notice that the Mouth has forgotten his real name, just like Gollum? He has been depersonalized, as Tolkien believed that industry did to people.

Good point.


Quote:
Gandalf is well aware that they do not have Frodo when he turns down the Mouth’s offer. If he had, Sauron would have already have stuck them all down and they wouldn’t be having that conversation.

Also, the Mouth talks about a single friend of theirs not two despite having Frodo's mail and Sam's sword, so that was a hint that all was not as it seemed.


Quote:
I think there WERE two gates, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm suually pretty emotional by this point so I could be wrong.

That's what I was thinking.  And, that is correct based on the quote from the book.  But, in the commentaries, they seemed concerned that the animators got it wrong.


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We're back to Frodo and Sam again. WHOOPEE!!!!!!!!!!



Thanks so much for chatting with me about this!
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #352 on: March 28, 2006, 06:10:54 pm »
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OK.  I'm double posting once again, but now I'm posting about the next three chapters, so here goes.

The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Early on it gives links to the other storylines and what is happening when.

"Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again."  When did Sam take the Ring off?  I noticed this before.  I thought that he still had it on when he chased the orcs at the end of Two Towers and that's why he could hear their conversation and understand it.

Sam has two choices: Forbear the Ring or claim it; it tempted him - he wants a garden, flowers, trees - but he knows enough not to claim it.  It is tempting him very quickly since he is in Mordor unlike Bilbo and Frodo who had it much longer without strong temptations.

Phial of Galadriel gets Sam past the Watchers, but the alarm sounds.  It's very convenient that the orcs killed each other.

Naked Frodo.  Alas for a PG-13 rating. 

Sam feels the pull of the Ring but gives it up.  Frodo sees Sam as an orc for a moment and then clears and says rightly "You can't come between me and this doom."

Frodo makes Sam eat/drink.  They are taking care of each other.

Alarm from the Watchers calls Nazgul (which they sensed earlier).

The Land of Shadow

Frodo says to go north from the road.  Why not south?  Still part of the plateau and fewer orcs and they can come at Orodruin from the south and it might even be a shorter distance.  I stared at the maps for a little while and was confused about this decision, except possibly for dramatic tension as they run into orc troops later.

Frodo can't remember parts of the Shire already.

Frodo senses Nazgul above them, not Sam; they see the shadow of the Witch King.

"The Shadow was only a small and passing thing." Sam is getting hope from the light and the star he sees.

Frodo gives Sam Sting; has an orcblade but does not expect to "strike any blow again." (More foreshadowing here.)  As an aside, I was thinking as I typed this about whether Frodo actually ever fights with Sting.  Does he stab/kill anything?  Not that I recall at the moment.  Rach?

Here is the line "Where there's a whip there's a will, my slugs." which I'm sure was the inspiration for the song "Where's there's a whip, there's a way" that was in the animated LOTR and was done my WWS for "Ringers."

Mount Doom

Sam realizes that there will be no food for a return trip, almost lost hope, but steeled his will.

Frodo has great self-awareness: "I could not give it up and if you tried to take it I should go mad."

Many lines from the movie: Frodo has no memory of good things; naked in the dark and no veil between me and the wheel of fire.

Sam has a conversation with himself that is reminiscent (sp?) of the Slinker/Stinker dichotomy between determination and pessimism.

"I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well."

Both feel a call to action on the slopes of Mount Doom.

When Frodo faces Gollum, Sam sees Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire." (Elflike).  With a commanding voice Frodo tells Gollum "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."  Foreshadowing again.

Sam doesn't kill Gollum.  This could be from his own pity or is it another power because Gollum still has a role to play.

Phial of Galadriel was subdued in the heart of Sauron's realm.

When Frodo claims the Ring, Sauron focuses on him so armies lose their will and halt.

Gollum dances and falls; Frodo did not go after him and did not fall himself.

Gollum had a role to play and the quest would have failed without him.

"I am glad you are here with me.  Here at the end of all things, Sam."

There are quite a few times in this section when Sam is acting but is not quite sure why he is doing certain things.  I'm guessing this is more of the influence of another power (Iluvatar?) similar to why Bilbo found the Ring and other things fell into place.  Or is Galadriel somehow guiding him (or Gandalf, but somehow he is thinking more of Galadriel with the Phial)?

On a different note: I watched the 2nd disk of TTT last night.  Theoden has thet lines about the horseless rider, etc. as he gets ready for the battle at Helm's Deep.  Where is that speech actually and who says it?  (Is that Aragorn at Boromir's "funeral"?  I just can't recall.)  Also, Sam in the film tells Faramir that the Ring "took" Boromir.  Did Sam actually know what happened with Boromir?  Did he guess that before he went after Frodo?  (My memory is terrible and I don't have time at the moment to scan back through this thread or get my FOTR and TTT books out again.)

Phew.  That's it for now.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #353 on: March 29, 2006, 11:45:03 am »
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Sam says nothing of the kind in the book. That was an addition of PJs. However, I think it is perfectly logical to assume that Sam knew what had happened with Boromir. On that long trek together, it seems unimaginable that Frodo wouldn't have told him.

I'll get to my post on this later today or tomorrow. I am up to my elbows in wallpaper paste removal and REALLY should go to the other Lowes and see if they have my light fixture. Then I need to call an electrician to put in the fixture and a plug. That bathroom has never had one.

*sigh* My poor back!

Hugs,
Rach - who would rather be on the computer
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #354 on: April 03, 2006, 02:45:02 pm »
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I'm behind. I beg your forgiveness.

Cirith Ungol

Tarks – Men of Gondor
The orcs still think that Sam is a great warrior, and elf or Man. They call him the more dangerous of the spies. Were they right? I think they were, in their way. Sam isn't dangerous because of strength of arms, but he IS very dangerous in strength of heart.

Sam is tempted by the Ring, but the temptation isa poorly thought out one. Sauron doesn't offer Sam anything he really wants. He has the sense to realize that power is not meant for him. He doesn't even want it. The book says that his love of his master and his good hobbit-sense are what keep him from falling to temptation.

The book also says this, "Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again." The only reason Sam felt any hesitation to return the ring to Frodo is because he doesn't want Frodo to be burdened. Sam has already passed his temptation.

I often wonder when I read this what would have happened if Sauron had offered Sam something different, perhaps Frodo safe, home, happy, and unburdened by the ring. Might things have turned out differently? Sauron has no concept of a mind that doesn't want power, so power is what he offers.

I LOVE the part where Sam sits down and sings and Frodo answers. What a wonderful way to find each other, in the midst of filth and death!

I’ve always loved the fact that Frodo makes Sam eat before they leave the tower. He is his old self again.


Have you noticed that the POV of the story has turned? Now Sam is telling things almost exclusively. This was a necessary move since Frodo, from this point on, becomes more and more obessesed and swollowed up by the ring.

The Land of the Shadow

Yes, Frodo fights with Sting a bit in Moria and cuts at the webs in Shelob's Lair, but that's about it. I feel a bit sorry that Elijah, after all that sword training, didn't get to use his. I felt so badly for him that I wrote a story where Frodo gets to have a good sword fight. If PJ wouldn't give EW a chance to use his sword, I would! LOL

Sam prays to “Your Ladyship”. This could be either Yavanna or Galadriel since he has called on her help before.

Sam asks for light and water in his prayer and is given both

Sam truly becomes, in his evolution of character the symbol of hope in the story. Most Tolkien scholars see him as the symbol of light in opposition to the symbols of darkness in the light (Goodness)/darkness(Evil) paradigm of the story.

In seeing the star, Sam is given hope again. One wonders if this was the gift of the Valar as well.

Now, Frodo tells Sam “Lead me.” Sam has become the official leader of the party to destroy the Ring. Their roles have reversed. This is is pretty intense foreshadowing of Sam's ultimate inheritance. Can't go further. It's a spoiler.

Sam isn’t telling Frodo that he’s giving his master all the water and his share of food too.
Even when they seem trapped by the orcs, Sam retains a bit of hope. “Seems so,”said Sam. “Well, we can but wait and see.”

Mount Doom

1.   Sam has become a very resolute hobbit. This first part corresponds to the part in the third movie where Sam tells Frodo there won’t be a return journey and holds out his hand. If there won’t be a trip home, Sam is sticking with Frodo anyway.
2.   This chapter has my FAVORITE Sam quote, the “creature of stone and steel “ one. I LOVE that!
3.   Frodo and Sam are now going on only because they must. The quest is everything in their lives and they see nothing beyond it.
4.   Do you remember the part of the movie at Mt. Doom where it looks a bit like Elijah is swatting flies? Its taken from this chapter where Sam notices Frodo’s “hand warding off a blow”. I must remember to be more respectful of that section from now on! LOL
5.   Sam is giving Frodo all the food and most of the water. Dehydration is very debilitating. How can they go on?
6.   Sam speaks of seeing “pale lights like eyes”. I don’t know why this never registered before, but Sam is seeing Gollum!
7.   Sam offers to carry the ring for Frodo here, but only to help him. Frodo’s reaction is strong but he is over it in a flash. One wonders what might have happened if he hadn’t. Sam’s life is in real danger on the quest, if nothing else than because Frodo could become a threat. I think this is what PJ was trying to convey in the scene in TTT where Frodo almost kills Sam.
8.   I’ve mentioned many times how the casting of the pans is a symbol of Sam’s growth as a hobbit and a character. I won’t mention it again. Wait…I just did!
9.   I never noticed it before, but it sounds to me as if Frodo is naked after casting off the orc garb, except for Sam’s elven cloak, Why else would Sam have cut a length of rope to tie the cloak around Frodo’s waist? All Frodo had to wear was lost in Cirith Ungol.
10.   Sam remembers the Shire and pleasant times there, but knows that “the way back…goes past the Mountain.” Its necessary that SOMEONE remember why they are suffering so and Frodo can’t.
11.   You know, I’ve just realized something else about this chapter. Doesn’t it sound like Sam’s debate with himself near the end of the section is Sauron tempting him again, trying to get him to give up?
Part 2
Sam has given Frodo the water to the extent that he cannot now even eat.
2.Why do you think Sam no longer feels the need for sleep, but for watchfulness?
3. When Sam lifts Frodo, he doesn’t feel the weight of the ring. Why?
4. Isn’t in ironic that Sam and Frodo approach Sammath Naur via Sauron’s own road?
5. On the slope, Sam feels himself called to hurry. Is it his conscience, or did someone call him?
6. They made it up the slope partially because Sauron’s Eye was turned to the encounter at the Black Gate.
7. Gollum may not have attacked Frodo of sheerly his own will at the end. The book says that only an attempt to wrest Frodo’s treasure from him could have roused him. Maybe someone KNEW this….
8. Frodo prophesies that if Gollum touches him , Gollum will fall into the Fires of Doom.
9. Here we see that Sam’s pity saves the quest. He has learned much on the journey, and this is one of the most important things.
10. After the Ring is destroyed, every one seems to freeze to watch the destruction of all that Sauron held in place, even Sam.

Celebrian, Sam DOES take the Ring off. I remember that. He really only wears it when he has to. He knows that the closer they come to Mt. Doom, the stronger the Ring becomes, and the heavier it becomes.

Hugs,
Rach



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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #355 on: April 03, 2006, 05:20:41 pm »
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Rach - All is forgiven.   I popped in to post about this weeks' chapters, but maybe I'll wait on that.


Quote:
"Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again." The only reason Sam felt any hesitation to return the ring to Frodo is because he doesn't want Frodo to be burdened. Sam has already passed his temptation.

My interpretation of this was a little different.  I think Sam is still tempted (just like Frodo is mostly resisting the Ring but at times is overtaken by its power) and that's where his reluctance comes from.  I did not interpret it to mean this "Sam felt reluctant to give the Ring back to Frodo because of the burden it would be for his master" which is how you seem to have interpreted it.

I always assumed that "Your Ladyship" was Galadriel since he has called on her before, he has the light she gave Frodo and I'm not sure he knows much about Yavanna.

Yes, Sam has definitely become the leader and the POV by necessity because Frodo is being so consumed by the Ring.  And, Sam is giving Frodo just about all the water and I thought half of his own share of the food - not quite all.


Quote:
3. When Sam lifts Frodo, he doesn’t feel the weight of the ring. Why?

I assumed that since Frodo is bearing the Ring that he is somehow "absorbing" for lack of a better word, the weight and power of the Ring, so Sam just feels Frodo's weight (and the weight of a normal gold ring that he would be carrying, I suppose).

And, Rach, I'm going to make an observation here and I want you to keep in mind that I love and respect you and I love Sam, OK?   I think that your very strong love for Sam leads you to interpret things in a way that is perhaps a little more favorable to Sam than they could be.  Which is not to say that most things are quite favorable to Sam.  He is brave, strong and keeping his head to get himself and Frodo through a very difficult set of obstacles.  But, as I said above, I think he is tempted by the Ring more than you have acknowledged (as I said above).  And, I think he is getting some help from other sources (Iluvatar, Galadriel, another higher power?).

Still friends?  

Anyway, I'll come back to post about the next three chapters later.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #356 on: April 03, 2006, 05:29:05 pm »
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I interpret things as a result of 40 years of reading and studying which have only intensified my love of Sam, but as this is an Elijah board, I can certainly understand that people here would lean toward a different interpretation.
Tolkien says Sam is the "chief hero of the book" for a number of reasons. I didn't make that up. It's in his Letters.

You have your interprtation and I have mine, and that is how the good Professor would have wanted it.

Still friends, of course.

Hugs,
Rach
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #357 on: April 03, 2006, 06:18:31 pm »
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Rach - I'm sorry.   Clearly there are times when one should not click the Post button.

Let me make clear, that I don't think this is an issue of this being an Elijah board.  I think people here (including me - which considering the way this thread is going may be among the most relevant) are very open to having fans of other actors or of the books in general here and posting their interpretations.  And, I actually think the disagreement over interpretation is really quite small in the grand scheme of things.  I respect your interpretation and your knowledge of Tolkien's other writings (which I have not read so I can't comment on in any way).  And I appreciate all that you have shared about those other writings and other things that I was not aware of.

Anyway, it is fine in any book discussion to have different interpretations of various things and I think that makes the discussion more interesting at times.  So, yup:


Quote:
You have your interpretation and I have mine, and that is how the good Professor would have wanted it.

Anyway, I apologize again.  And, when I have a bit more time (so not now when I have a whiny kid who needs to be fed), I will come back and post about the next three chapters so we can all move on.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #358 on: April 05, 2006, 02:09:55 pm »
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OK.  Double posting again, but this is a new set of chapters, so I think it deserves a new post.  And, I've been meaning to get to this for 3 days and finally managed to get a moment.

The Field of Cormallen

Too bad in the film Gandalf didn't have the line "The Ring-bearer has fulfillied his Quest."  I think Ian McKellan would have done a good job with it and it's a great line.  Not sure why they didn't include it.

There are 3 Eagles.  I think it was said earlier that maybe that was for Frodo, Sam and Gollum (in this thread or elsewhere), but it is not clear from the description if the Eagle that carries Gandalf also carries a hobbit.  It could have been Gandalf, Frodo and Sam for the 3.

In the repeated line here it adds the word "that" to "I am glad that. . ."  I wonder why it is different?

Sam won't give up (hopeful due to clear skies in the north).

Sam saved both of Galadriel's gifts (phial and his box).

The minstrel sang the lay of "Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom" just as Sam hoped.

At the end of the lay, Aragorn stands, but where was he sitting - I thought he put Frodo and Sam on his throne.

Pippin says that Frodo should write allt he stuff down so Bilbo won't be disappointed if they forget.  There are several Bilbo references that brings him back into the story before they see him again.

The Steward and thet King

Faramir and Eowyn talk about waiting for the "stroke of doom" then time seems to halt; then hope at the time the Ring is destroyed.  They all feel it.

Aragorn plants the new seedling.  The old tree is put in Rath Dinen with the dead kings.

I didn't write any specific notes, but I love Faramir's forthrightness when he talks to Eowyn as their relationship develops.

Many Partings

Arwen gives Frodo thet Evenstar (white gem like a star) to aid him when memory of fear and darkness troubles him.

Eomer and Gimli settle the issue of most beautiful lady.  Galadriel/morning vs Arwen/evening.  Morning "will pass away for ever." since Galadriel will soon said into the west.  Fits earlier symbolism, though we are now in the 4th age.

Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep.  Why?

Eowyn gives Merry a horn (heirloom from Eorl the Young).  When blown enemies feel fear and friends feel joy.

Ents made Isengard into a garden; they also fought the northern orcs who would have stopped the Rohirrim or at least destroyed Rohan before their return.

Gimli and Legolas go from there to Fangorn (and had already visited the Glittering Caves by Helm's Deep).  End of the Fellowship.

Galadriel says that she and Treebeard may meet again in the "willow-meads of Tasarinan"  Ummm, huh?  Where is that?

Pippin is still a knight of Gondor.  Aragorn will come north one day.

Celeborn tells Aragorn "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end."  Why didn't celeborn sail west with Galadriel?  I know he stayed on for a while with the sons of Elrond, but why?

They meet Saruman and Wormtongue.  Saruman takes Merry's pouch and some foreshadowing "things less good in the Southfarthing."

Celeborn, Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf talk telepathically.

Hobbits find Bilbo as soon as they get to Rivendell on the day before his 129th b-day.

Frodo and Sam felt the need to return to thet Shire.

Bilbo gives gifts: 3 books of lore for Frodo; gold to Sam for his marriage; pipes to Pippin and Merry.  Bilbo asks about the Ring n Frodo says he lost it so that is in Rivendell (not on the way to the Grey Havens like in the movie). Sings  the "Road goes ever on and on" song.  Asks Frodo to take his notes to organize and write them up.

Elrond tells Frodo to look for Bilbo and him in the woods of the Shire next fall.

Phew!  After several interruptions, I'm done I think.
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Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
« Reply #359 on: April 05, 2006, 04:30:18 pm »
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I think it was said earlier that maybe that was for Frodo, Sam and Gollum (in this thread or elsewhere), but it is not clear from the description if the Eagle that carries Gandalf also carries a hobbit.  It could have been Gandalf, Frodo and Sam for the 3.

I've always thought that the third eagle was for Gandalf. I really don't think even the eagles could carry both a wizard and a hobbit. That's just my idea, of course.

My favorite line in The Field of Cormallen is Sam (of course!LOL) saying, "Is everything bad going to come untrue?" It's very typical of Sam and I imagine how it must have seem to both he and Frodo. They thought Gandalf was dead and here he is. They thought they would never make it to destroy the ring and yet they did. They thought there would be no return journey and yet here they are with their friends. They must have felt as if the bad WAS coming "untrue".

Celebrian, Aragorn DID set Frodo and Sam on his throne. Here's the quote. "..and taking them both by the hand, Frodo on his right and Sam on his left, he led them to the throne and setting them upon it, he turned to the men and captains who stood by and spoke..."

These little hobbits, the least of ME, sat on the throne of the king. That's SOMETHING!

It has always bothered me a bit that Eowyn dropped her desire for glory so easily when she fell in love with Faramir. I guess love makes you do strange things. LOL



Quote:
Arwen gives Frodo thet Evenstar (white gem like a star) to aid him when memory of fear and darkness troubles him.

I have a little theory about this jewel. It is JUST my idea. I've never read anything else about it. It is based on something from the Appendices so I won't explain it here but I will when we get there.


Quote:
Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep.  Why?

I really don't know. It has always seemed like maybe it was a sort of "guy" thing, except for Eowyn, of course, but again. it's just my feeling.


Quote:
Celeborn tells Aragorn "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end."  Why didn't celeborn sail west with Galadriel?  I know he stayed on for a while with the sons of Elrond, but why?

Perhaps it was because he was not one of the elves who went to Valinor to begin with. I am no elf expert by any means, but as I recall, Celeborn had never been to the Undying Lands, as Galadriel had, and therefore had less connection to it. He may have also felt he still had things to do in ME. He lived in ...let me think....Doriath, withon the Girdle of Melian in ME. They didn't meet until Galadriel came back from Valinor with her family after the Kinslaying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Both Elrond and Celeborn lost their wives to Valinor fairly early. It's rather sad. Maybe it is something to do with the symbolism of sailing west that people with bonds of love are so often separated by it.

Hugs,
Rach





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