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  Marion Zimmer Bradley
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   Author  Topic: Marion Zimmer Bradley  (Read 740 times)
Chanterella
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2003, 09:16:16 am »
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Me! I loved it. 
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2003, 10:30:03 am »
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Okay, can someone answer a question for me.

Disregarding all of these books for a moment:
  Morgan Le Fay (Morgaine, Morgein, Morganna,however you want to spell it) is a Celtic Goddess. I'm wiccan so I know that alot of Pagans who come from a Celtic background worship her as a lesser deity. But then I've also heard that she is not a goddess but an evil sorceress and half sister of King Arthur, Morganna. Then I've heard she is both a goddess, an evil sorceress and Lady of the Lake. Not only that but also a faery and a water sprite.
  If she were an evil sorceress then the celts wouldn't worship her because I know that Pagans,Druids and Wiccans don't worship anything bad or harmful. So are the evil sorceress myths just that: Myths? Or stories made up to make interesting books out of? If she is a Pagan Goddess of The Lake then how does her being evil come into all of this? What I'm really asking is who was Morgan Le Fay? And how religion and magick comes into all this avalon stuff.
So my overall question:

Who the hell is Arthur's half sister? 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2003, 10:31:23 am by .:elf:. » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2003, 10:41:59 am »
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I was always told and read that Morgan Le Fay WAS Arthur's sister but then againlike you I always read she was an evil faery. But that can't be true because I am studiyng Faery Wicca and Morgan Le Fay is one of the faeries I worship. I PERSONALLY do not believe her to be evil but sorta sad and hurt. Religion is so confusing sometimes.
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2003, 10:48:15 am »
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I just copied and pasted this. . Maybe it'll help. . .


The problem with tracing any single character throughout the hundreds of years worth of literature is the subtle changes that each rendition introduced, not to mention that the collection itself is so vast is is nearly impossible to catalogue. However,through most of the literature, Morgan was considered the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois making her the half-sister to Arthur. Usually she is pitted against Arthur as his one major adversary, and is usually the mother of Mordred--the man destined to bring about the fall of Camelot. She is also considered the daughter of LeFay, a Welsh sea Goddess; indeed, the root of her name (mor) means sea and she was a sea Goddess standing where one must cross to reach the isle of the otherworld. She may very well have once been a Goddess of Glastonbury Tor which is sacred to Pagan ritual as a gateway to the otherworld.

The true origin of Morgan is yet to be defined, even the development of her name itself is still under consideration. But, as with most Arthurian characters, there are several trails leading us back to some character from Celtic mythology. In tracing her name, one theory equates her with Modron (from Welsh literature, the daughter of Avallach, wife of Urien, and mother of Owein). This name could have then been abandoned for Morgan later by the Bretons. But still, there are other references to a similar character by such names as "Morgne the goddes" (Gawain and the Green Knight) or even Morgain (Vulgate Lancelot). The idea that Morgan was typically the plotter of King Arthur's death easily equates her with the Morrigan (a Triple Goddess of Celtic myth) as both are generally thought of as the Goddess of Death.

The Morrigan


Over his head is shrieking
A lean hag, quickly hopping

Over the points of the weapons and the shields;

She is the gray-haired Morrigu.

(from the Tain Bo Guilagne)



The Morrigan, also known as the Morrigu, is a Triple Goddess consisting of the crone Goddesses depicting war, battle, death, and destruction. A Triple Goddess is worshipped in pagan cultures as eternal but in a continual state of flux. Like the moon which represents her, she remains the same yet shows a different face throughout her eternal cycle. She is the Maiden, Mother, and Crone. The Morrigan represents the Crone aspect of this Triple Goddess, which is represented by the old woman.

According to Celtic tradition, as they entered into battle, the Morrigan flew in shrieking overhead in the form of a raven or crow. Once the battle had ended the soldiers would leave the remaining dead on the field until dawn, in order for the Morrigan to claim her own trophies, their heads (note the crow gouging out the eyes of the man's head in the picture above).

What fate awaits King Arthur and his ever-present, usually problematic half-sister? We can only wait and see...


~~~~
Me writing now

You know how in Spanish and French they have DE and DI for the words of? Well maybe LE means OF also. So it would say Morgan of Fay. Menaing Morgan of the Fay Folk or something. Just something I always thought about.
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2003, 11:00:30 am »
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Naw it means Morgan the Faery in some language i think...maybe gaelic?

Thanks for that. It did help. 

Thats cool that your studying faery wicca...I've read a couple books on it but It's a bit confusing to me. Have you read Faery Magick by Sirona Knight? If you haven't you should. Its really imformitive. 
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2003, 11:54:12 am »
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*sigh* I've been wondering bout Morgaine myself...That was interesting though, thanks for posting it.
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2003, 12:26:29 am »
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Wow, quite interesting! I've been wondering for quite some time now so that was really interesting now. Thanx for posting!
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2003, 06:23:58 am »
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I was all confused about that Morgaine stuff, so thanx.  Also, in the Mists of Avalon, they say that Morgaine is ugly and small like a fairy but in the pictures drawn by painters and others she is always drawn as being pretty and tall.
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2003, 09:54:11 am »
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I think the drawings are like that because (at least in my opinion) her strong mind and power made her seem taller than she actually was and when I read the book I never imagined her as being ugly or something... Argh, I really don't know how to explain this! *lol* 
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2003, 10:30:51 am »
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I actually think you're right.  Using the magic she learned in Avalon, she managed to look taller and beautiful to men even if to women she looked ugly. I think you're right on that. 
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"Walk on a rainbow trail; walk on a trail of song, and all about you will be beauty. There is a way out of every dark mist, over a rainbow trail."
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2003, 06:26:17 am »
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Quote from: Chanterella on July 10, 2003, 10:30:51 am   

I actually think you're right.  Using the magic she learned in Avalon, she managed to look taller and beautiful to men even if to women she looked ugly. I think you're right on that. 
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2003, 04:36:52 pm »
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Morgaine and Morgan and Morgause are sometimes the same person, sometimes their roles switch. Same goes for the 'Morrigan'reference that is made.

There is  1) Morgan Le Fay (the fairy), Arthurs halfsister, but in one of the earliest documents on Arthurian legends she is reffered to as (2) the chief of 9 sisters from the Isle of Apples. Nothing there to indicate she was Arthurs relative. In Malory she was the child of Igraines first marriage with Gorlois, In the Vulgate Merlin, (3) Arthurs niece, the daughter of Lot. Some people say she was the mother of Mordred and the one who plotted Merlins death (and also Arthurs, by giving birth to Mordred, nowing that hge would kill his uncle/father.

In other accounts however, this role is set aside for Morgause, halfsister of Arthur, born from one of Uther Pendragons' 'adventures'
and queen of Lot.

It's a bit complicated, I studied Arthurian legends last year, but I can't really explain the details, since I'm feeling really drowsy at the moment (must sleep).

MZB made her own interpretation of these legends and took a female pov. I read the first book, but I must say, It's not really my favourite in the genre, but that's just a matter of taste of course.

I hope it explains a bit why there are some many different views on whether she was evil good, ugly or beautiful, blonde or dark (yes, that differs too).

BTW: I just love the bit from the Tain Bo Guilagne that was quoted in CrimsonRose 's post. It's one of my favourites 

And last but not least, I will take this opportunity to shamelessly promote Mary stuarts Merlin Trilogy again.  I love Merlin, he's my hero...
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2003, 06:15:00 pm »
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Thanks for that. 

See in the book I'm reading Merlin is sort of a bad guy. Not a real wizard, just a man who makes prophecies. And Morgan Le Fay is not the mother of mordred but an evil sorceress. She is the half sister of King Arthur though, and dark haired and ugly. 

But in the mists of avalon Morganna is both half sister to aruthur, mother of mordred and Le Fay?
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2003, 09:25:43 am »
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In the mists of avalon Morgouse is Igrain's sister and she is an evil witch and she brought Morgain's son (Mordred) up. Perhaps you would understand it better if you read the Forest House and The Lady of Avalon.
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Re:Marion Zimmer Bradley
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2003, 12:07:44 pm »
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The first time I "met" the charaters of the Arthurian legends was when I started reading the books of Marion Zimmer Bradley, I actualy think that her books give us a quite good version which I think to be the right one, of what happened during that period of time. 
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