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Title: Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 16, 2004, 10:58:29 pm

I was getting ready for bed the other night, and from the bathroom I heard the news say something about an abortion pill, that has been causing all sorts of bad things(including death), along with a very painful abortion.

has anyone heard anything else about this?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 17, 2004, 04:37:28 am

Well, doesn't an abortion involve death? You mean death to the person consuming it? I've heard of the "morning after" pill, but not abortion pill... ???

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: jennilisanne on November 17, 2004, 07:05:39 am

I think what they're saying is that the morning after pill is an abortion pill, technically, cos if you take it the morning after, and you have already conceived, then you are killing it.

But I was watching a programme a while ago, no I wasn't, I read somewhere a while ago about someone who went to have an abortion, they gave her a pill to take, the next day her mum found out and tried to stop it, but the pill she had taken had already started to process and it was too late (sounds very matrix!), maybe that's what they're talking about...?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 17, 2004, 08:20:23 am

I think there is a small difference between the morning after pill and abortion pill...

I'm going offline now, but I'll try and get some info tomorrow... :)

cherio

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 17, 2004, 10:00:52 am

I think this is the one they're talking about:
http://www.cbctrust.com/RU486.96.html (http://www.cbctrust.com/RU486.96.html)

New Warnings on Abortion Pill Label:
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/97/104025.htm (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/97/104025.htm)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Elven_gurl12 on November 17, 2004, 04:29:09 pm

Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 17, 2004, 04:47:14 pm

ya I they specifically said abortion pill, not morning after pill...and yes I meant they killed the consumer...and thanks frankie for those links...i don't have time to look now, but I will for sure look later ;)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: I_LOVE_MY_BOYZ on November 17, 2004, 08:36:06 pm

[quote author=*Learning2Breath* link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773415 date=1100726949]
Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(
[/quote]

yeah, i don't agree w./ abortion either... I mean sure, it's inside the mom... but is it the mom's heat beat she's stopping? Plus, i've heard that abortion has serious psycological effects on the mom after it is done. ... my dad's friend's girlfriend (apparently his friend too) killed her unborn baby. he said that she would call him in the middle of the night screaming and crying about what she had done... and went practically insane... But, for some reason, you never hear about that side of abortion. :-\

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 17, 2004, 09:04:55 pm

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773535 date=1100741766]

he said that she would call him in the middle of the night screaming and crying about what she had done... and went practically insane... But, for some reason, you never hear about that side of abortion. :-\
[/quote]

actually I've heard lots about how depressed it makes the mother...we had a guest speaker in CAPP 10 and she talked about abortion breifly, metioning and stressing depression...

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 17, 2004, 10:31:52 pm

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773535 date=1100741766]
he said that she would call him in the middle of the night screaming and crying about what she had done... and went practically insane... But, for some reason, you never hear about that side of abortion. :-\
[/quote]

Yes you do. You hear stuff like that all the time. You also hear about mothers who gave into pressure and kept the children, only to neglect them and dump them off at an orphanage later because they couldn't handle the mental and emotional stresses of having a child.

There is no clear-cut prescription to this problem. Each person is different. The minute you try to label people, you will exclude quite a numerous chunk and force them into things that will destroy them in one way or another.

I don't want to get into the debate of whether abortion is right or wrong, since that always ends badly. For information's sake, yes, I am pro-choice. That means I'm "for" abortion, if you want to put it that way. It is in the most basic sense. There are a lot of other factors to consider, but I don't want to get into that since I don't have nearly enough information for such a debate.

I will say that this is the first time I've heard of an abortion pill. I can't picture how that would work without killing the mother. What a horrid thing to have to test one someone or something living. :-\ It's unfortunate that they died, but people die trying new pills everyday. Well, not literally every single day, but rhetorically they do.

Anyway.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 18, 2004, 12:13:32 am

i think there's a clear solution to abortions...if your not ready to have a child, then don't have sex.

it's as simple as that.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 18, 2004, 12:30:01 am

[quote author=*Learning2Breath* link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773415 date=1100726949]
Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(
[/quote]

It is terrible but I wouldn't consider it sick. A lot of woman need or have to have abortions, unfortunately, and mostly for different reasons. Some woman are raped and in some cases woman know that there is something wrong with the fetus - then I would think that those cases might be acceptable (for lack of a better word) :-\ It's a sad reality but sometimes it needs to be done.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 18, 2004, 12:30:42 am

[quote author=x.J'adore.Elijah.x link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773439 date=1100728034]
ya I they specifically said abortion pill, not morning after pill...and yes I meant they killed the consumer...
[/quote]

I thought so..lol ;)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 18, 2004, 12:32:02 am

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773586 date=1100748712]
[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773535 date=1100741766]
he said that she would call him in the middle of the night screaming and crying about what she had done... and went practically insane... But, for some reason, you never hear about that side of abortion. :-\
[/quote]

Yes you do. You hear stuff like that all the time. You also hear about mothers who gave into pressure and kept the children, only to neglect them and dump them off at an orphanage later because they couldn't handle the mental and emotional stresses of having a child.

There is no clear-cut prescription to this problem. Each person is different. The minute you try to label people, you will exclude quite a numerous chunk and force them into things that will destroy them in one way or another.

I don't want to get into the debate of whether abortion is right or wrong, since that always ends badly. For information's sake, yes, I am pro-choice. That means I'm "for" abortion, if you want to put it that way. It is in the most basic sense. There are a lot of other factors to consider, but I don't want to get into that since I don't have nearly enough information for such a debate.

I will say that this is the first time I've heard of an abortion pill. I can't picture how that would work without killing the mother. What a horrid thing to have to test one someone or something living. :-\ It's unfortunate that they died, but people die trying new pills everyday. Well, not literally every single day, but rhetorically they do.

Anyway.
[/quote]

Very very good point

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 18, 2004, 12:32:34 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773602 date=1100754812]
i think there's a clear solution to abortions...if your not ready to have a child, then don't have sex.

it's as simple as that.
[/quote]

but but but ..... it's fuuuuun... ;) With the right person and protection of course :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 18, 2004, 01:07:19 am

well i'm not saying it's not fun..well not that i'd know, i'm waiting untill marriage. but i just feel like if your willing to do that, you need to take on the responsibilities that come along with it.

i think its so selfish to go out and have your night of fun and pleasure, and you get pregnant, and then kill the child. that child didn't ask to be concieved, it was all your doings. that was all i was trying to say..

lol, i'm well aware of it's perks :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 18, 2004, 02:51:11 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773618 date=1100758039]
well i'm not saying it's not fun..well not that i'd know, i'm waiting untill marriage. but i just feel like if your willing to do that, you need to take on the responsibilities that come along with it.[/quote]
true... true...

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773618 date=1100758039]i think its so selfish to go out and have your night of fun and pleasure, and you get pregnant, and then kill the child. that child didn't ask to be concieved, it was all your doings. that was all i was trying to say..
[/quote]
I understand, that's why young immature girls shouldn't be having sex

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773618 date=1100758039]lol, i'm well aware of it's perks :)
[/quote]
And perks they are ;)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: jennilisanne on November 18, 2004, 04:33:13 am

[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773607 date=1100755801]
[quote author=*Learning2Breath* link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773415 date=1100726949]
Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(
[/quote]

It is terrible but I wouldn't consider it sick. A lot of woman need or have to have abortions, unfortunately, and mostly for different reasons. Some woman are raped and in some cases woman know that there is something wrong with the fetus - then I would think that those cases might be acceptable (for lack of a better word) :-\ It's a sad reality but sometimes it needs to be done.
[/quote]

Very much agree with this. I don't agree with it just, because it was a mistake, but if, well, see above!!!

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Helix on November 18, 2004, 07:02:31 am

I'm absoloutley pro-choice. I'm fifteen years old and if I were to get pregnent now and decided to keep the baby my world would be completely turned around and I definetly wouldn't be able to do many of the things I plan to do. I would probably also end up resenting my child, and no kid deserves that.
There are also a variety of other reasons, such as rape, I mean, who would want to give birth to their rapist's baby?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Nijntje on November 18, 2004, 09:53:05 am

[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773607 date=1100755801]
[quote author=*Learning2Breath* link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773415 date=1100726949]
Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(
[/quote]

It is terrible but I wouldn't consider it sick. A lot of woman need or have to have abortions, unfortunately, and mostly for different reasons. Some woman are raped and in some cases woman know that there is something wrong with the fetus - then I would think that those cases might be acceptable (for lack of a better word) :-\ It's a sad reality but sometimes it needs to be done.
[/quote]

Agree! Killing an unborn baby is not good, but what happens to a child when it has to grow up with a traumatized and raped mom and it doesn''t even know who the father is because he's (probably) in jail for doing that to its mom. (i know, difficult line) What if the child discovers that it is the result of a crime? nice family would that be. No, sometimes it's better. But if it was just an 'accident' I think mom and dad should keep the kid and make something of it together (no they don't have to move in together or something, but they do have to take care of it together, not like dad running of like a coward and leaving mom with the trouble-what still happens very often-)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 18, 2004, 02:03:47 pm

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773618 date=1100758039]
well i'm not saying it's not fun..well not that i'd know, i'm waiting untill marriage. but i just feel like if your willing to do that, you need to take on the responsibilities that come along with it.

i think its so selfish to go out and have your night of fun and pleasure, and you get pregnant, and then kill the child. that child didn't ask to be concieved, it was all your doings. that was all i was trying to say..

lol, i'm well aware of it's perks :)
[/quote]

I agree with Twoleafclover completely on this. I can speak from personal experience. The first time I had sex was on my wedding night, at age 21. It was well worth waiting for and does have lots of perks. :D It was not easy to wait but it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I have no regrets. I know I would have had regrets if I had, had sex before marriage.

I know six women who have had abortions (I am sure I know more but just am not aware they have had an abortion) and every single one of them regret it. As someone who has had seven miscarriages (and a little stillborn daughter), I can't not imagine the sadness and guilt of losing a baby "on purpose." I had so much sadness and guilt even though I miscarried naturally ("I shouldn't have listed that box yesterday," "Did I drink too much caffeine?" etc)

One of my babies was only ten weeks gestation but I held that little one in my hand. He was fully formed and "perfect" in every way. Very much a human being.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: littlehafling on November 18, 2004, 02:10:37 pm

I agree, Rose. That's the way it should be. I mean, you're saving yourself for your true love - there's nothing wrong with that! People are like, "Well how am I supposed to know if he's the right one if I don't try having sex with him?" And I'm just like, um...hello! If he's the right one, you'll get married, and then it'll be perfectly okay to have sex with him! ::) Some people are just idiots. I, for one, intend to keep myself saved for just the right guy on my honeymoon; because once you lose your virginity (especially to the wrong guy!) you can't get it back, period. As far as the abortion pill, people who decide to have sex before marriage, they need to be careful! That way they won't have to resort to such a horrible thing (abortion.) If people would just THINK... ::)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: TotalGeek on November 18, 2004, 04:05:58 pm

I think if you're mature enough to have sex without protection your mature enough to carry the baby to full term. That way you're still getting rid of the baby you just don't have to kill it first.
But, that's just what I think and I mean no offence by it so please don't take any.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 18, 2004, 06:58:11 pm

[quote author=Helix link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773663 date=1100779351]
I'm absoloutley pro-choice. I'm fifteen years old and if I were to get pregnent now and decided to keep the baby my world would be completely turned around and I definetly wouldn't be able to do many of the things I plan to do. I would probably also end up resenting my child, and no kid deserves that.
There are also a variety of other reasons, such as rape, I mean, who would want to give birth to their rapist's baby?
[/quote]

I am also pro...I don't think it's wrong to terminate of something when it hasn't even taken form of a baby...it's techniqually still just a sperm and an egg, in one...if you do it soon enough, how is that murder? ladies, when we get periods, thats killing eggs...If a guy ejackulates(sp?) in a chlorine hot tub, that kills the sperm...i belive if abortion is done immediatly, it is not murder...

I have heard of a very disturbing way to abort a baby, but it is very rare...the mother go's through with the 9 months of pregnancy, and when they are delivering, the doctor somehow(i can't remember how) turns the baby so that it comes out feet first. Then as it comes out they break it's kneck or somthing like that...I can't remember how they killed the baby, I just know it wasn't pleasant...I think it was more gory than breaking it's neck...I believe something like that is wrong...

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 18, 2004, 07:42:17 pm

[quote author=littlehafling link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773797 date=1100805037]
People are like, "Well how am I supposed to know if he's the right one if I don't try having sex with him?" And I'm just like, um...hello! If he's the right one, you'll get married, and then it'll be perfectly okay to have sex with him! ::) Some people are just idiots.
[/quote]

To me it seems like you are overgeneralising. I have had sex with someone even though I did not know he was the right one. I was with him for three years - some marriages don't even last that long. And marriage is not forever. Have you been in a long-term relationship? They are a lot of work, as anyone will tell you. Even if you completely love the person, you may realise down the road that you do not work well together in a marriage. Some people never get married for that very reason. Relationships are not all the same. It's great to have the ideal that everyone has a "one true love" but that's not true. You have to date and be open to meeting new people, and sometimes, people do this through sex. I don't think anyone thinks that sex is going to tell them who their true love is - I have NEVER heard anyone say that. Some women are taken advantage of at parties or when they're walking alone at night. And when I say "parties," I don't always mean that they've been drinking.

There are too many issues here to make general statements like I see most people making. For one thing, not everyone wants babies; I'm sure at least a few women, if they had the money, would get their tubes tied and be done with that possibility. For another, not everyone is irresponsible in their sexual partners. I fully recognise that I did not have my first partner tested, so I got myself tested before carrying on with someone else (I also insisted that they be tested); a lot of people DO use protection, and they use it CORRECTLY. For another, some people think they're in love and they have sex to be closer, not just to have random sex. Not everyone who gets pregnant has done so because she is a cheap hooker of some sort. There are many other things but it would take too long to type so I'll just wrap up my thoughts.

If you have a difference of opinion, that is completely okay. But I completely resent the fact that you have categorised me as a "stupid idiot." Yes, I have had pre-marital sex. Yes, I intend to have more of it. And yes, I use protection. I am not going to tell you that you're a prude for not having pre-martial sex; I'm not going to call you a stupid idiot or repressed or any of those terms people normally get called. I am going to respect your decision and wish you well with it.

Please think before you post, since what you say can be construed as an attack against others.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 18, 2004, 07:58:43 pm

I completly agree with you willikins...and I do plan on having pre-marital sex(however I am not yet ready, and I have not found a long term boyfriend yet) I definatly think pre marital sex, is completly fine, as long as you get tested,(just as you said you did, which is obviously very, very smart)especially if you are having sex the first time with someone who has had sex with 2 or 3 others.

as for gettin pregnant when having sex, I heard from a lady who talked my my CAPP class, that condoms are actually only about 75-80% effective(im not sure if she meant against pregnancy, STI's or both)...If I was going to have sex, I would use a condom, as well as being on birth control pill(which I am allready on for girl issues).

I feel, if you are doing everything right when it comes to sex, and you get pregnant, you DO NOT deserve to be called "immature" or "a sl*t". Even when you take all the neccisary steps to safe sex, something can always go wrong and that isn't your fault...If, this DID happen, I think abortion should be an option, concidering they did not plan on being pregnant, and they didn't do anything wrong. However, if someone is responsible enough to get both sexual partners tested, and use a condom, etc, etc, they would most likely have very little trouble raising a child.

I hope I didn't say anything wrong, or bad...These are my opinons from some of the things I have learned

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 18, 2004, 11:27:16 pm

[quote author=Nijntje link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773709 date=1100789585]
[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773607 date=1100755801]
[quote author=*Learning2Breath* link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773415 date=1100726949]
Whatever type of abortion pill it is, I think it is sick, killing an unborn. :'(
[/quote]

It is terrible but I wouldn't consider it sick. A lot of woman need or have to have abortions, unfortunately, and mostly for different reasons. Some woman are raped and in some cases woman know that there is something wrong with the fetus - then I would think that those cases might be acceptable (for lack of a better word) :-\ It's a sad reality but sometimes it needs to be done.
[/quote]

Agree! Killing an unborn baby is not good, but what happens to a child when it has to grow up with a traumatized and raped mom and it doesn''t even know who the father is because he's (probably) in jail for doing that to its mom. (i know, difficult line) What if the child discovers that it is the result of a crime? nice family would that be. No, sometimes it's better. But if it was just an 'accident' I think mom and dad should keep the kid and make something of it together (no they don't have to move in together or something, but they do have to take care of it together, not like dad running of like a coward and leaving mom with the trouble-what still happens very often-)

[/quote]

i think this just boils down to whatever your religious beliefs are. obviously everyone differs. you speak of rape, that is a tough situation, but i can tell you in all 100% honestly if that happened to me, i would have the child. b/c i believe God wouldn't have put me in that situation if He didn't think i could handle it. the Bible says God will never make you endure more than you can handle.

it doesn't matter HOW the child was concieved...the fact remains it is a human..the child isn't the one that harmed you, or forced themselves on you. That child did nothing to do with that rape. nor do they deserve to have their brain crushed, and their limbs pulled apart one, by one, and i don't care -how- old they are, or how many weeks, they CAN feel the pain of that process. i'm sorry, but i just can't understand how anyone could kill an unborn child. it doesn't matter if it's completley "formed" (meaning you can distinguish hands, feet, etc.) it becomes a human the minute the sperm meets the egg.


nobody is saying you have to keep the child, if you think you would resent it for whatever reasons, put them up for adoption. i knew a girl in high school who was adopted, and she had the best life, they totally spoiled her, she had a convertable, very well off parents, and lived in a nice neighborhood. my point is that there are so many people DYING to adopt children..why kill them? it's just so senseless. i'm sorry but if you don't want children then you shouldn't be having sex, because that's what comes of it, unless you take birth control, but even that isn't 100% efective.

and to those of you for abortion..

think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 18, 2004, 11:41:36 pm

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774082 date=1100838436]

unless you take birth control, but even that isn't 100% efective.


[/quote]

actually it's more effective then condoms...I'm pretty sure birth control is actually,(unlike condoms that say they are 99.9% efective) 99.9% accurate...

The safest sex, is condom, diaphram and birth control...but not many people do that...

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 19, 2004, 12:45:02 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774082 date=1100838436]
think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.
[/quote]

Wouldn't you have to apply the same reasoning to every egg that a woman ever had, even if it didn't meet with sperm? I've thought often of what would have happened if it hadn't been my egg that had been fertilised; it would not have made me sad, since I would not be conscious of it. You're talking to us about remorse for if we hadn't been born, but if we hadn't been born, we would have nothing about which to feel remorseful, since we would not be alive. What I mean is that feti (the plural of fetus), as far as I know, do not have memories. If they are aborted, they will not know that they have missed out on something, so how can they feel pain about that? As for physical pain, I really am not well-versed in what an abortion feels like from either the perspective of the mother nor the fetus, but I suspect that the fetus does not have a fully developed nervous system in order to feel pain. Without full developed nerves - the things that control our physical, and sometimes, emotional feelings - there is not a logical way they would feel pain. Again, I am not sure how developed their nervous system is, but if it is not developed, then one cannot make the argument that they would feel pain since they cannot feel anything.

I am talking about physical pain. If you are talking about emotional pain, I don't agree but I'm not going to spend time arguing it.

I would like to say that the world is overpopulated as it is. It IS overpopulated - that is actually a concrete fact. And there are NOT a lot of people wanting to adopt. I don't know which statistics you've been reading, but if you point me to them, that would help me believe your point. Every article and every news show and special I've seen talks about a high percentage of unwanted orphans. There are more unwanted children in orphanages than wanted ones, from what I've read and seen. I would hate to bring another unwanted child into the world. Concerning emotional pain, I think it would hurt just as much to feel discarded like that, to be forced into a life where you were stuck in an orphanage because no one wanted you, not even your own parents. Because that's what you're doing - you're choosing their life for them. Unless you can show me for a fact that there is only a small percentage of unwanted children in the world, I simply cannot agree with the idea you present.

Nevermind that it takes a huge mental toll on the mother. A lot of women go into depression when they get pregnant. I, personally, would feel utterly disgusted at the idea of carrying a child that I didn't want because some man found it to be his right to rape me. That is unfair in my opinion. I would not want to disgrace myself and my body that way; to be disgraced with the rape itself would be too taxing as it is. I have only spoken to one rape victim and I would never wish that on anyone. She would never have been able to keep the child, had she not been on birth control. She probably would have committed suicide or some such thing. I don't think it would have been fair to demand that of her, to give up her life for nine months to care for a decision she did not make. I highly doubt that that is God deciding that it's your time to have a child; it's a person, usually with mental problems, who decides that he wants to have power of you. Quite honestly, I find the idea - not the person who said, but the idea itself - of mixing God up with the reasons behind rape, as if it were a religious experience instead of a hateful, mind-shattering one.

Damn, and I swore I wasn't going to talk about rape. Either way, I've had only minimal education in this and it was enough to affect me as much as it has. I find it insensitive to expect a victim to cooperate with their attacker's responsibility.

Anyway.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on November 19, 2004, 01:03:00 am

willikins I just want to tell you how wise I think you are...you put everything together perfectly, and I admire how you stated that facts...and I agree with you 100% ;)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 01:07:32 am

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774120 date=1100843102]
[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774082 date=1100838436]
think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.
[/quote]

Wouldn't you have to apply the same reasoning to every egg that a woman ever had, even if it didn't meet with sperm? I've thought often of what would have happened if it hadn't been my egg that had been fertilised; it would not have made me sad, since I would not be conscious of it. You're talking to us about remorse for if we hadn't been born, but if we hadn't been born, we would have nothing about which to feel remorseful, since we would not be alive. What I mean is that feti (the plural of fetus), as far as I know, do not have memories. If they are aborted, they will not know that they have missed out on something, so how can they feel pain about that? As for physical pain, I really am not well-versed in what an abortion feels like from either the perspective of the mother nor the fetus, but I suspect that the fetus does not have a fully developed nervous system in order to feel pain. Without full developed nerves - the things that control our physical, and sometimes, emotional feelings - there is not a logical way they would feel pain. Again, I am not sure how developed their nervous system is, but if it is not developed, then one cannot make the argument that they would feel pain since they cannot feel anything.

I am talking about physical pain. If you are talking about emotional pain, I don't agree but I'm not going to spend time arguing it.

I would like to say that the world is overpopulated as it is. It IS overpopulated - that is actually a concrete fact. And there are NOT a lot of people wanting to adopt. I don't know which statistics you've been reading, but if you point me to them, that would help me believe your point. Every article and every news show and special I've seen talks about a high percentage of unwanted orphans. There are more unwanted children in orphanages than wanted ones, from what I've read and seen. I would hate to bring another unwanted child into the world. Concerning emotional pain, I think it would hurt just as much to feel discarded like that, to be forced into a life where you were stuck in an orphanage because no one wanted you, not even your own parents. Because that's what you're doing - you're choosing their life for them. Unless you can show me for a fact that there is only a small percentage of unwanted children in the world, I simply cannot agree with the idea you present.

Nevermind that it takes a huge mental toll on the mother. A lot of women go into depression when they get pregnant. I, personally, would feel utterly disgusted at the idea of carrying a child that I didn't want because some man found it to be his right to rape me. That is unfair in my opinion. I would not want to disgrace myself and my body that way; to be disgraced with the rape itself would be too taxing as it is. I have only spoken to one rape victim and I would never wish that on anyone. She would never have been able to keep the child, had she not been on birth control. She probably would have committed suicide or some such thing. I don't think it would have been fair to demand that of her, to give up her life for nine months to care for a decision she did not make. I highly doubt that that is God deciding that it's your time to have a child; it's a person, usually with mental problems, who decides that he wants to have power of you. Quite honestly, I find the idea - not the person who said, but the idea itself - of mixing God up with the reasons behind rape, as if it were a religious experience instead of a hateful, mind-shattering one.

Damn, and I swore I wasn't going to talk about rape. Either way, I've had only minimal education in this and it was enough to affect me as much as it has. I find it insensitive to expect a victim to cooperate with their attacker's responsibility.

Anyway.
[/quote]

no that wouldn't apply to every egg, b/c obviously, that egg wasn't fertilized.
and you're missing my point. by aborting the child, you're robbing them of being able to *develop* memories, and grow. and yes the world is over populated, i agree with you on that..so what should we do, start walking around killing each other? i don't see how just b/c the world is "crowded" that justifies murder, and yes abortion is murder, anyway you look at it.

i never presented the idea that every woman who was pregnant by rape had to give birth, i simply said that if i were in that position, i would. however, if you look at the abortion stats, rape isn't one of the most common reasons, it's ACTUALLY one of the least common.

and yes, people -are- looking to adopt, obviously not every orphan, but there are people wanting babies of their own.

you highly doubt that's God saying it's your time to have a child b/c your not Christian, and your beliefs differ from mine. and i never said anything about -keeping- the child, you're putting words in my mouth. i only said that if God allowed that to happen, then that's what He wanted. it's evident that we have different opinions though.

and here's a link of how abortions are done, in all their appalling glory.

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

look if you dare.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 19, 2004, 01:53:36 am

I didn't say we should kill each other, simply that we should not overpopulate the earth willingly. If we have a choice as to whether or not to have a child that will be sent off into the world alone, without parents, then I would say that that is the worse option. I do not see how you jumped from me saying "the world is overpopulated" to "let's kill everyone." I only said that putting depressed, unwanted children into a world that is already overpopulated is a bad notion, in my opinion. It's not fair to the child because they will not only be alone, but the more children are born, the less resources available there will be, and hence the double negative side to having a child you do not intend to keep.

I never said rape was a common cause of abortion. I know that a lot of women have "accidents" because they are not acting responsibly in their sexual pattern. I was only responding to your comment that in your belief, women who are raped should keep the baby. Usually, unless I state something specifically, I am not making an assumption. Just something I'd like to specify for future posts.

I never said there weren't people looking to adopt. I did say that the majority of children available for adoption are not actually adopted. Unless you can show me proof backing up your claim - that at least 50% of children in the world up for adoption are actually adopted - then I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. People DO adopt - yes, I know this happens. But it doesn't happen enough, and there are lots of children that spend their entire childhood in orphanages or social service places. And it's not a happy existence.

I didn't say you should keep the child. If I said "keep," I meant "not abort."

I am not going to get into debate with you over religion, since that is already taking place in another thread. I'm curious to know something, though: do you agree that humans have free will? I mean, if they do, then doesn't that mean that the humans are deciding what to do and not God? If you don't think we have free will, then that's totally fine. But I thought you said God should have a backup plan because free will was obviously not working. How do you rationalise both beliefs? I'm just asking, because it seems a bit contradictory, which means I am probably confusing or misunderstanding things.

That link was not informative. I've seen many such pictures. It didn't actually explain anything until the end. It was only used to produce shock value without any actual explanation. I saw no testimonials from women who said that they'd had an abortion, explaining what it was like. Only pictures that said "God help us" and other such things. That qualifies as propoganda, not as an explanation.

THIS (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/LIBRARY/ABORTION/howabort_fact.html) is a link from Planned Parenthood about the different types of abortion, for those who actually want to know how the procedures are performed instead of just looking at pictures of aborted feti. The procedures are not pleasant, I agree, but I found this to be more informative.

Heh, and thanks for the compliment, J'Adore. :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 am

i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..


yes i agree with free will, but not murder. i don't feel anyone has the right to take/end another life. we're not God, only He can do that. i'm aware that these contradict each other, but that's just the way i feel. sorry if i confused you..

and i didn't post that link to inform everyone on the procedures, i posted it mostly for the pictures and the brief explanation of how it's done.


and one more thing, i do appreciate your being civil on this issue, i know abortion debates can sometimes get very brutal. so i thank you for your willingness to see and understand other peoples perspectives in a mature manner.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 19, 2004, 02:29:17 am

I did not mean to convey the idea that overpopulation was a justification for abortion. I meant that in general people should not be having a lot of children and if a child is not even wanted, then I do not see the benefit of giving birth to them and putting them in a situation where they will be miserable. If a child were to be born into a family that wanted it, fine. But I mean, look at China; they have strict rules now because they became TOO overpopulated. I think we should be wary of the same thing happening all over the world.

Some people have huge families and that's great but the more people do this, the less people will have in general because there will be too many people and not enough world resources.

How do you know orphans aren't depressed? In America, most children who were left by their parents are not happy, whether their parents put them up for adoption or passed away. No child likes being without parents. Divorce is hard enough, but to to not at all have the chance to grow up with the support and love and family experience of one's parents? That just sucks, in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are not depressed as well. But other people are not the topic here - unwanted children are. So it's not really relevant to the conversation.

I thought you were trying to inform others since you prefaced the link with "this is how abortions are done." Either way, I read up on my link and I know that it's a harsh procedure, but I remain pro-choice. If a pill for abortion was developed and if clients were tested by a certified physician and guidance counselor of some sort, then I would be for it. As it is now, from what I understand of abortion clinics, they do actually talk to you beforehand to make sure you want to go through with it. It's not just an up-and-go thing, at least, not at the clinics. They get what counseling is offered. And if a person was emotionally scarred by their experience in getting an abortion, I'm sure that at least 75% of those people would not have a repeat of that situation and would seek to educate others. People can still learn from their mistakes.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 19, 2004, 02:34:57 am

[quote author=Helix link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773663 date=1100779351]
I'm absoloutley pro-choice. I'm fifteen years old and if I were to get pregnent now and decided to keep the baby my world would be completely turned around and I definetly wouldn't be able to do many of the things I plan to do. I would probably also end up resenting my child, and no kid deserves that.
There are also a variety of other reasons, such as rape, I mean, who would want to give birth to their rapist's baby?
[/quote]

A person with a heart would never resent their child... ever (but I understand what you are trying to say). If your were raped and happened to keep the baby you will love it no matter how it was "conceived" and what happened. I think it's more the anger because of what happened to you (or should I say rape victim) and the hatred for the person that did it (should be dragged into the street and shot). The child is innocent. I would assume that after a woman has been raped that they do go for check-ups (therapy) and tests to make sure that they aren't pregnant and the doctors would advise them what to do there after.

It's a difficult situation and pray to God that nothing that terrible happens to me... I pray to God that it doesn't happen to any woman. :-\

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:38:49 am

i do see your point, about the world being over populated, and i agree, we should take precaution. i just don't think abortion is the solution. if everyone who was having sex who didn't want a child at the moment used birth control, we wouldn't have the problem of too many orphans. i agree accidents will happen..but that wouldn't be half as many unwanted children as we had now..if everyone would just be responsible..that's all i'm trying to say

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 19, 2004, 02:48:43 am

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774002 date=1100824937]
[quote author=littlehafling link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773797 date=1100805037]
People are like, "Well how am I supposed to know if he's the right one if I don't try having sex with him?" And I'm just like, um...hello! If he's the right one, you'll get married, and then it'll be perfectly okay to have sex with him! ::) Some people are just idiots.
[/quote]

To me it seems like you are overgeneralising. I have had sex with someone even though I did not know he was the right one. I was with him for three years - some marriages don't even last that long. And marriage is not forever. Have you been in a long-term relationship? They are a lot of work, as anyone will tell you. Even if you completely love the person, you may realise down the road that you do not work well together in a marriage. Some people never get married for that very reason. Relationships are not all the same. It's great to have the ideal that everyone has a "one true love" but that's not true. You have to date and be open to meeting new people, and sometimes, people do this through sex. I don't think anyone thinks that sex is going to tell them who their true love is - I have NEVER heard anyone say that. Some women are taken advantage of at parties or when they're walking alone at night. And when I say "parties," I don't always mean that they've been drinking.

There are too many issues here to make general statements like I see most people making. For one thing, not everyone wants babies; I'm sure at least a few women, if they had the money, would get their tubes tied and be done with that possibility. For another, not everyone is irresponsible in their sexual partners. I fully recognise that I did not have my first partner tested, so I got myself tested before carrying on with someone else (I also insisted that they be tested); a lot of people DO use protection, and they use it CORRECTLY. For another, some people think they're in love and they have sex to be closer, not just to have random sex. Not everyone who gets pregnant has done so because she is a cheap hooker of some sort. There are many other things but it would take too long to type so I'll just wrap up my thoughts.

If you have a difference of opinion, that is completely okay. But I completely resent the fact that you have categorised me as a "stupid idiot." Yes, I have had pre-marital sex. Yes, I intend to have more of it. And yes, I use protection. I am not going to tell you that you're a prude for not having pre-martial sex; I'm not going to call you a stupid idiot or repressed or any of those terms people normally get called. I am going to respect your decision and wish you well with it.

Please think before you post, since what you say can be construed as an attack against others.
[/quote]

You took the words right out of my mouth, letter by letter...

Bravo!

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 19, 2004, 02:59:12 am

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774120 date=1100843102]
[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg774082 date=1100838436]
think back on all the wonderful memories, and good times you've had since you can remember. think of all the vacations, prom, achieved goals and think of how wonderful it felt, just think of every wonderful memory you can remember.

now imagine if your mother had decided to kill you, and all that you would have missed out on, and would be robbed of. i'm not trying to attack anyone on here for their ideas, morals or personal beliefs..i'm simply trying to give you perspective.
[/quote]

Wouldn't you have to apply the same reasoning to every egg that a woman ever had, even if it didn't meet with sperm? I've thought often of what would have happened if it hadn't been my egg that had been fertilised; it would not have made me sad, since I would not be conscious of it. You're talking to us about remorse for if we hadn't been born, but if we hadn't been born, we would have nothing about which to feel remorseful, since we would not be alive. What I mean is that feti (the plural of fetus), as far as I know, do not have memories. If they are aborted, they will not know that they have missed out on something, so how can they feel pain about that? As for physical pain, I really am not well-versed in what an abortion feels like from either the perspective of the mother nor the fetus, but I suspect that the fetus does not have a fully developed nervous system in order to feel pain. Without full developed nerves - the things that control our physical, and sometimes, emotional feelings - there is not a logical way they would feel pain. Again, I am not sure how developed their nervous system is, but if it is not developed, then one cannot make the argument that they would feel pain since they cannot feel anything.

I am talking about physical pain. If you are talking about emotional pain, I don't agree but I'm not going to spend time arguing it.

I would like to say that the world is overpopulated as it is. It IS overpopulated - that is actually a concrete fact. And there are NOT a lot of people wanting to adopt. I don't know which statistics you've been reading, but if you point me to them, that would help me believe your point. Every article and every news show and special I've seen talks about a high percentage of unwanted orphans. There are more unwanted children in orphanages than wanted ones, from what I've read and seen. I would hate to bring another unwanted child into the world. Concerning emotional pain, I think it would hurt just as much to feel discarded like that, to be forced into a life where you were stuck in an orphanage because no one wanted you, not even your own parents. Because that's what you're doing - you're choosing their life for them. Unless you can show me for a fact that there is only a small percentage of unwanted children in the world, I simply cannot agree with the idea you present.

Nevermind that it takes a huge mental toll on the mother. A lot of women go into depression when they get pregnant. I, personally, would feel utterly disgusted at the idea of carrying a child that I didn't want because some man found it to be his right to rape me. That is unfair in my opinion. I would not want to disgrace myself and my body that way; to be disgraced with the rape itself would be too taxing as it is. I have only spoken to one rape victim and I would never wish that on anyone. She would never have been able to keep the child, had she not been on birth control. She probably would have committed suicide or some such thing. I don't think it would have been fair to demand that of her, to give up her life for nine months to care for a decision she did not make. I highly doubt that that is God deciding that it's your time to have a child; it's a person, usually with mental problems, who decides that he wants to have power of you. Quite honestly, I find the idea - not the person who said, but the idea itself - of mixing God up with the reasons behind rape, as if it were a religious experience instead of a hateful, mind-shattering one.

Damn, and I swore I wasn't going to talk about rape. Either way, I've had only minimal education in this and it was enough to affect me as much as it has. I find it insensitive to expect a victim to cooperate with their attacker's responsibility.

Anyway.
[/quote]

Once again girl, letter by letter...

My brain is on snooze mode at the moment..

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 19, 2004, 03:44:09 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774148 date=1100848421]
i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..
[/quote]

I don't want to pick a fight or anything ;), but have a look at 3rd world countries, obviously mainly in Africa. I'm from South Africa which is more of a 2nd world country if you want to put it like that. It is devastating to see how many unwanted children there are, and even more devastating is that 95% of them have HIV or AIDS and nobody wants them. This is another issue. Mothers with AIDS conceiving and giving birth, there are drug treatments but they are way to expensive for most Africans. What does one do then? You have AIDS, you fall pregnant, your child is born with HIV/AIDS. Do you have an abortion to "save" the child from death or do you have the child, raise him/her with your family and wait for them to die, or do you give them up for adoption and let them die in an orphanage?

It's actually so sad, the poverty in Africa which denies people the right to chose.

Oh well... :-\

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 19, 2004, 03:55:15 am

I'm not racist so please don't think that that is the message I am trying to convey.

The woman I speak of in my previous post, unfortunately, mainly involve the black population in Africa. A lot of the woman are raped and pressured into having sex by the men in tribes or communities. Most of them don't have a choice and also cannot afford birth control, although some of them are free of charge. The reason being that they cannot get transport to go to the clinics and get the "pill". Sadly enough, condoms, a lot of them don't even know what it is and how to use it.
I've actually heard that the black people in Africa think the the "white" people are lying about the HIV virus just to scare them and to "force" them to stop having children. They think it is our way of "getting rid" of the black people in Africa...... What next?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 19, 2004, 05:25:22 pm

Willikins, you are a very skillful debater, so I have to admit, I hesitate to debate you. Even though I strongly believe and stand fof my convictions, I am not as articulate and can not express myself as well as you do. I can't cover everything you have talked about but I wanted to respond to a couple of points.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774138 date=1100847216]
I didn't say we should kill each other, simply that we should not overpopulate the earth willingly. If we have a choice as to whether or not to have a child that will be sent off into the world alone, without parents, then I would say that that is the worse option. I do not see how you jumped from me saying "the world is overpopulated" to "let's kill everyone." I only said that putting depressed, unwanted children into a world that is already overpopulated is a bad notion, in my opinion. It's not fair to the child because they will not only be alone, but the more children are born, the less resources available there will be, and hence the double negative side to having a child you do not intend to keep.

[/quote]

Is the world really overpopulated? I know I am going to get totally flamed for that question. The media teaches that the world in overpopulated and, certainly, parts of the world is. But is the world in general overpopulated? I have never had anyone be able to give me enough evidence to truly believe that. Personally, I think that reason is used far too often as an excuse to promote abortion.



[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774152 date=1100849357]


How do you know orphans aren't depressed? In America, most children who were left by their parents are not happy, whether their parents put them up for adoption or passed away. No child likes being without parents. Divorce is hard enough, but to to not at all have the chance to grow up with the support and love and family experience of one's parents? That just sucks, in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are not depressed as well. But other people are not the topic here - unwanted children are. So it's not really relevant to the conversation.


[/quote]

I am afraid I don't quite understand this train of thought. So because someone might be unhappy later in life, we should abort them when they are preborn babies? Also, I can think of at several friends who were adopted as children who are very happy in life. But, that is actually beside the point. You don't kill someone because they might be unhappy some day. That would pretty much eliminate all of us

I can't find the place where you said the baby does not have enough of a nervous system to feel the pain of an abortion (I am sorry if I am quoting you incorrectly or misunderstood). How can we be sure of something like that? Obviously the child can't tell us. We do not know if they can feel pain or not. But, in a way, that is also beside the point. I would not feel pain if someone shot me in the head while I was sleeping, but that doesn't make it right.

I truly believe that 99% of the time a child is aborted because they are an inconvenience. I find this to be a selfish train of thought. My children are not always "convenient" (I was up with one for an hour in the middle of the night after she had a nightmare last night. I can't just take off and leave when ever I feel like it.) They certainly "cramp my style" at times. But I don't get rid of them for that reason. I know I am not a 15 year old, unwed girl that suddenly finds herself pregnant, but that can be avoided by avoiding sex. I don't understand the line of thinking that says, "I want to have sex because it's fun. If I get pregnant, I can always abort." I just don't get that! Has our society really become that self-centered?

I know I have come across much stronger than I usually do. The life of a preborn child is something I am passionate about. There are other things people do that I think are "wrong" but they don't affect a child who can't even defend him/herself so I can live with those things. However, this is something I really feel strongly about and felt like I had to "say my piece." I hope I have not lost any of the friends I have made on this forum because I really like all of you, but I just can't apologize for anything I have said.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 19, 2004, 07:54:35 pm

Haha, I think that that's the first time I've been called a skillfull debater, Rose. And anyway, when I read what someone writes, I try to get at the heart of what they're saying instead of focusing on the wording they use, though if it's completely out there then I might have trouble understanding.

Unfortunately for me, I do not have the links right now to show you articles about overpopulation. I do have two friends who studied this in college so if you really want to know, I can e-mail them and see if they have any links. But I know that even in Los Angeles, there IS overpopulation. Maybe that doesn't correlate to the entire world, but there are overpopulated areas. I'm going to use the China example again, just cause it's easiest. China really IS populated. I've seen special video things on the education channel and all that which discuss this very thing. They are strict on birth control and seek to control the problem and sometimes even to inform others. Does this mean that if a Chinese person wants to have more than one child that they should move? I don't think that that's fair to the couple. However, since they've had so many children in the past, they have to be monitored. I know I wouldn't like it very much if someone told me I could only have a certain number of kids, and if we do not think about it now, we will be in a lot of trouble later. Plus, if you use some logic, we know that humans are living longer and longer, whether it be due to diet or to exercise or to the medicines we develop. Even two-hundred years ago, we died a lot sooner than we do now. Yet we keep producing many children. That means that we have MORE people in the world living LONGER. Simple mathematics tells us that eventually, yes, the world will be overpopulated.

Again, if you want the links, I can try to e-mail my friends.

The second train of thought was prompted by twoleafclover's statement that there was no way to know whether orphans or unwanted children would lead a depressing life. I countered that she didn't know that they would be happy. And though it seems to be hard to get read data, I'll include a few links in case you want to peruse them:

Facts about international adoption (http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview/international.html)

Okay, damn, I can't find out how many children are adopted of the ones who become adoptable. Either way, from what I've seen, it doesn't seem that the majority are adopted. I checked up on California and they said that only about 10,000 out of five million were adopted. That's just in California. Only 10,000 were ACTUALLY adopted. I wish I could have found it in more general terms cause that would be more applicable, but when I say California overpopulated, I really do mean it. With these statisitics, it becomes harder for me to condone letting the child grow and be born.

With the nerves, it basically comes down to this: we don't know. You can say that I don't know for sure, and I can say that you don't know for sure. Either way, nothing has been proven. It is speculation until further notice. That's why I only suspected that the child would not feel pain if he had no nerves, I did not present it as fact, only as what I thought.

I think most of the abortions that get put into the news are those which are "inconveniences." For me, part of the factor in the whole idea of being pro-choice is whether or not the couple was informed. I mean, you can still use condoms and spermicide and birth control pills and get pregnant. It's not a very likely chance, but it still can happen - it's still a possibility. However, I believe that if a person is educated and is using the items correctly, then there will not be any slip-ups and, if there are, that that person should be entitled to get rid of the fetus. I know that I take every precaution I can not to get pregnant; I am safe with my partners, or as safe as I can be. If I got pregnant even after doing all the correct things, and using all the 99.99999% effective items in the way they were meant to be used, then how have I been irresponsible? By simply having sex? I realise that some people would say yes, and good for them. But these are two separate issues for me, because you have the fifteen year old who is either peer pressured or really just wants to have sex and experiment but does not know enough about her own body and ends up pregnant, and then you have someone like me who tries to keep updated and safe - I mean, you can stil get an STD (or an STI - I don't know which acronym is more popular nowadays) from anyone. I am doing my best to counteract that, and to counteract pregnancy. If I maked my decision based on information and research without intentionally getting pregnant, then I think that that is different than someone who went out drinking and had an orgy.

I don't know if I've explained that well since I am rather tired right now. :P But I am not offended. I am glad that you are challenging me to think more and to find more links (even though I'm not the best with that). I like constantly thinking about the world and what I think is right or wrong. So...good times. Heh.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: I_LOVE_MY_BOYZ on November 19, 2004, 10:06:41 pm

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774128 date=1100844452]

you highly doubt that's God saying it's your time to have a child b/c your not Christian, and your beliefs differ from mine. and i never said anything about -keeping- the child, you're putting words in my mouth. i only said that if God allowed that to happen, then that's what He wanted. it's evident that we have different opinions though.

and here's a link of how abortions are done, in all their appalling glory.

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

look if you dare.
[/quote]

I highly agree with that. And i have heard of several instances where an abortion did not go correctly and the umm... doctor? took it into a back room and drowned it... (this is a true story, it was witnessed by a nurse that later that day quit the company)

Also, Willikins, I agree with you that the world is currently overpopulated. But throught history, when over population has occured, a massive disease has devistated certain countries (not trying to scare anyone, but that always does seem to happen) If we kill our next generation (or a large part of them) how will the human race carry on if something of this nature does occur (once again, i'm not making any predictions or anything... i'm just giving a "what if" )?

You also said a lot of Orphans are "unwanted"... that may be true, but if that is the case, why is i know so many people that want to adopt but can't? My aunt faught for years before she finally got custody to two little boys. (she could not have children of her own, and for years children were placed in her care and then taken away again due to the terribly ANNOYING system our government has provided for the adoption of orphans) I feel sometimes that i am "unwanted" in certain places, but that does not change the fact that i do experience happiness, and it does not change the fact that i can make a difference despite my "unwanted" presence. What if the baby you (not YOU, but an ... "x" mom) kills was meant to be the President of the United States. What if when they grew up they were going to find the cure for a terrible disease like aids? A life, even a "future" life has so many possibilities... what right does a mother have to take those rights away by ending her pregnancy?


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 12:21:03 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774148 date=1100848421]
and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..[/quote]
[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774427 date=1100903122]
I am afraid I don't quite understand this train of thought. So because someone might be unhappy later in life, we should abort them when they are preborn babies? Also, I can think of at several friends who were adopted as children who are very happy in life. But, that is actually beside the point. You don't kill someone because they might be unhappy some day. That would pretty much eliminate all of us[/quote]
Sure, there are lots of people who were adopted, had a good life and few things to complain about. It doesn't mean every possible future orphan should be aborted, if someone decides to carry out the baby and give it up for adoption I'd welcome the idea. Somehow pro-choice people are always being portrayed as if abortion should be the first option in case of unwanted babies. It should always remain the last in my opinion.
Rose, you can think of several friends who were adopted and grew up happy, but you know what? I have several friends who grew up miserably, were physically and sexually abused and actually wish they had been aborted. Keep in mind there are lots of those cases as well.
It's not just about being unhappy someday, "inconvenient" children often have to suffer a lot more than just being unhappy. There are daily child abuse reports flooding in. Babies were thrown out the window 'cause they were crying and bothered whoever wanted to watch TV? Doesn't sound responsible to me. I will not bother to show you a site with pictures of those abused children but it would be just as sad as the one twoleafclover posted.
Or what about pregnant women who cannot control their drug consumption? They shouldn't be able to have an abortion but give birth to the child? Ever seen a crack baby? Do you know what pain they have to go through? If those women decide to keep the baby and get help that's great, but let's face it, most of them won't.


on 1100903122, Rose wrote:
I can't find the place where you said the baby does not have enough of a nervous system to feel the pain of an abortion (I am sorry if I am quoting you incorrectly or misunderstood). How can we be sure of something like that? Obviously the child can't tell us. We do not know if they can feel pain or not. But, in a way, that is also beside the point. I would not feel pain if someone shot me in the head while I was sleeping, but that doesn't make it right.

I live in Germany and the law here says if you consider to have an abortion it can't be done after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Anything after that is illegal and I think it's a good option as the baby does not feel any pain during that time.
Is it legal in the US to kill unborn babies even if the woman is already 9 months pregant? That, I agree, would be sick.

Does a fetus feel pain in an abortion?
This is not a simple question to answer, despite what then-President Ronald Reagan said in 1984: "When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing." Anti-choice leaders claim that even 8-week old fetuses can feel pain because they react to touch and will pull away from invasive stimuli. The infamous anti-abortion film The Silent Scream from the mid-1980's depicts an ultrasound of a "painful" 12-week abortion, but this film has been dismissed as propaganda by medical experts, who say it is "riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, as well as misleading statements and exaggerations."

There is no direct scientific evidence that third-trimester fetuses feel pain, but we can infer they do based on indirect observations that newborn premature babies appear to feel pain. In 1987, an influential paper by a leading British expert on pain, Dr. K.J.S. Anand, helped persuade the medical community that premature babies feel pain. Prior to that, newborn babies needing surgery usually received minimal anesthesia. Anand demonstrated that painful stimuli to premature babies resulted in hormonal and other physiological stress responses, including increased blood pressure, heart rate, and respiratory rate. He also showed that premature babies given pain medication for surgery had lower complication and death rates than babies that went without.

Both findings indicated that premature babies likely experience some degree of pain (and therefore full-term newborns as well). Some researchers dispute this, however, since the stress response to pain stimuli is not a sure indication of a conscious perception of pain. Regardless, it has since become normal practice to provide pain medication to babies during surgery.

What of the claim by anti-choicers that even very early fetuses can feel pain? In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.

Although sporadic brain waves can be detected by about 21 weeks gestation, genuine continuous brain waves do not begin until about 28 weeks, indicating that the nerve circuits needed to carry pain impulses to the brain are not fully connected till then. This also marks the beginnings of conscious awareness, which is generally considered a requirement for experiencing pain.

Anti-choicers believe early fetuses feel pain because 8 week-old fetuses already have some peripheral nerve endings that are connected to the spinal cord, allowing them to react to touch and other stimuli. However, this is a simple reflex response that has no conscious awareness associated with it, such as when your lower leg jerks up when your knee is tapped. There is no experience of pain because the nerve circuit is not interacting with the brain. An analogy might be putting a light bulb in a socket and flipping the switch when there are no electrical wires connecting the two, and therefore no current either. Put another way, there is no necessary connection between fetal movement and mental awareness, as we know from the famous example of headless running chickens.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/fetal-pain.html

It's strange how the anti-choice people in this thread seem to think pregnancies will just not occur by avoiding sex. True, but does your personal choice of waiting until marriage also keep some sick person from raping you? Do you really want anyone who was raped to keep the baby or at least go through 9 months pregnancy? If abortion would be illegal what will happen in those cases? Will the woman be allowed to have an abortion? There will be proof needed that she actually was raped, this could be a debate in court rooms for weeks, until the baby is actually able to feel pain. Why would you wish all this on a pregnant woman that was raped?

One more thing, I don't think people will ever stop having abortions whether it's illegal or not. If it really has to be done however, it should be done safely.



[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774506 date=1100920001]
Also, Willikins, I agree with you that the world is currently overpopulated. But throught history, when over population has occured, a massive disease has devistated certain countries (not trying to scare anyone, but that always does seem to happen) If we kill our next generation (or a large part of them) how will the human race carry on if something of this nature does occur (once again, i'm not making any predictions or anything... i'm just giving a "what if" )?[/quote]
I could give you many "what ifs" from a pro-choice point of view, but this would lead to nowhere.
Anyway, it's weird to say we're killing our next generation. Who are you talking about? The masses of people that hate children and want to abort them? Trust me, the world is still full of those who would love to have a family one day. If there should be a massive disease (which could be AIDS for example, in some african countries a large percentage of the population is already infected) there will still be plenty of people who will survive. You do believe that human race begun with Adam and Eve, right? That's just two people. What about the flood? I don't think there were many survivors and still human race was able to carry on.
For those who favor evolution, I've read that all Europeans descend of only 7 women (who lived about 45,000 years ago, if I remember correctly).

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774506 date=1100920001]
What if the baby you (not YOU, but an ... "x" mom) kills was meant to be the President of the United States. What if when they grew up they were going to find the cure for a terrible disease like aids? A life, even a "future" life has so many possibilities... what right does a mother have to take those rights away by ending her pregnancy?[/quote]
Jess, somehow you always end up bringing your personal belief into these debates. Let me ask you this, what if people aren't destined to be anything but become what they decide to be?
Or hey, what if that baby grew up to become a serial killer? (maybe I should open up a thread about whether you're for or against death penalty?)
Sorry, but these are just lame excuses.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 01:53:21 am

quote from NIX

Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 AM
i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..


I don't want to pick a fight or anything , but have a look at 3rd world countries, obviously mainly in Africa. I'm from South Africa which is more of a 2nd world country if you want to put it like that. It is devastating to see how many unwanted children there are, and even more devastating is that 95% of them have HIV or AIDS and nobody wants them. This is another issue. Mothers with AIDS conceiving and giving birth, there are drug treatments but they are way to expensive for most Africans. What does one do then? You have AIDS, you fall pregnant, your child is born with HIV/AIDS. Do you have an abortion to "save" the child from death or do you have the child, raise him/her with your family and wait for them to die, or do you give them up for adoption and let them die in an orphanage?

It's actually so sad, the poverty in Africa which denies people the right to chose.

Oh well...

sorry i had to do it this way..my computers not letting me quote things right now, anyway..

no offense taken :) i respect your opinions just as you do mine.. now to answer your inquiry,

i agree it is sad, about orphans with aids and such, and to let you know, and anyone else who cares, i do plan on going to africa when i get done with nuring in college, to help the sick children, that's one of the reasons i'm going. just so i don't look like i'm talking a bunch of hot air, i feel very passionate about this subject. africa is the only place i want to go, b/c i know there is much help needed there.

now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.

and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 20, 2004, 11:35:34 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774534 date=1100933601]


and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, Twoleafclover. Avoiding premarital sex would eliminate most of the reason given to abort a child. It would also eliminate a lot of sexual diseases.

I realize that the pressure is very strong for young people to have sex before marriage. But you know what, I have never met a person who has been a virgin on their wedding night who has regretted it. I have met many people who were not a virgin on their wedding night who regret it deeply. And I am not just talking about people who share my faith and beliefs. There is something so special about saving your body for that one special person. I am so thankful I have never had sex with anyone other than the love of my life, my husband. Neither has he. We saved our bodies for each other and there is something very sweet and special about that.

Frankie, thank you for posting the article. I have to say, though, that it did not convince me. I think I mentioned in a previous post that I have had seven early miscarriages. I held one of my tiny babies in my hand. He was only ten weeks gestation but he was fully formed. I could even tell he was a boy. I am not convinced that he would not have felt pain during an abortion.

As far as what the laws are here in the USA about how far into the pregnancy you can have an abortion, I have to admit I don't know. Does anyone else know?


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 20, 2004, 02:05:13 pm


on 1100933601, twoleafclover wrote:
now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.

Just as you think they don't deserve to die because of an illness (which is kind of ironic, cause they'll probably die soon anyway) I think every child deserves to grow up happy. There's no way we can give each and every one of those children all they need, especially if the population rate keeps growing like this. This doesn't mean we should go to Africa and abort all their babies, though. I think willikins merely used those children as an example of overpopulation and unhappiness among orphans, which is true.
And no, it wasn't their doings but they still have to pay for it by growing up in poverty and with a disease they will soon die of. But I think simple birth control would help that region a lot.


on 1100933601, twoleafclover wrote:
and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.

You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774595 date=1100968534]
Frankie, thank you for posting the article. I have to say, though, that it did not convince me. I think I mentioned in a previous post that I have had seven early miscarriages. I held one of my tiny babies in my hand. He was only ten weeks gestation but he was fully formed. I could even tell he was a boy. I am not convinced that he would not have felt pain during an abortion.[/quote]
I'm sorry for your loss, Rose.
But the article I posted did mention that:
In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.
Their body is already developed but the inner organs aren't, so no, at that stage they cannot feel any pain.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 20, 2004, 04:30:25 pm

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774480 date=1100912075]
Haha, I think that that's the first time I've been called a skillfull debater, Rose. And anyway, when I read what someone writes, I try to get at the heart of what they're saying instead of focusing on the wording they use, though if it's completely out there then I might have trouble understanding.

[/quote]

LOL! :D I appreciate that you look at the heart instead of how well I may say something. :) I have strong beliefs but have trouble articulating them.



[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774480 date=1100912075]

Unfortunately for me, I do not have the links right now to show you articles about overpopulation.
[/quote]

That's okay, Willikins. Don't go to the trouble of trying to find the links on that. I realize could be wrong on this (gasp! :o :)) issue and the worldl may indeed be overpopulated. It is not something I feel strongly about either way, though it doesn't change my views on abortion since I don't feel it is right to kill an unborn child, whether the world is overpopulated or not. (On a side note, I do have five of my own children so I guess I haven't done much to stop the world's overpopulations, :) if indeed it is. My husband and I wanted lots of children, in fact we would have had more except that I kept miscarrying and I could not handle that emotionally any more so I had my tubes tied. It took 13 pregnancies to get my five children. I would have had seven if I could have. Anyway, sorry to get off on this rabbit trail.)

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774633 date=1100977513]

You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.

[/quote]

I feel this was sort of an unfair accusation. Don't we all give our point of view based on our beliefs? You feel that JessB and Twoleafclover state their positions based on their belief in God, and, yes, they do. But don't you give your views based on your belief that abortion is okay and that there is no God? We all give our opinions based on our own worldview.

As far as saying that if we believe the Bible's laws we should not pretend to be tolerant, I think that is a bit unfair, too. (Yes, I know life isn't fair.) My beliefs and convictions for myself are based on the Bible. But that does not mean that I don't respect you and your opinions.

However, I will be the first to admit that I am NOT tolerant of abortion. When I oppose abortion, I believe I am advocating and defending those who can not defend themselves (the unborn child). If someone choses to not believe in God or chooses to have premarital sex, I do not agree with them, but I respect their right to their own belief. But if someone chosese to kill an unborn baby, I just can't respect or accept that. You would be absolutely right if you accuse me of not being tolerant in that area. I believe a woman has a right to do what ever she wants to with her OWN body, but not with the body of her baby. On a side note, I have heard my babies' heartbeats as early as 6 weeks gestation. The heartbeat was another human beings, not my own. If a woman wants to cover her body in tatoos and body piercing, I may not appreciate it or like it but I agree that she has a right to do that. However, she does not have a right to kill her unborn child. I am very passionate about my belief about that.

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774633 date=1100977513]

I'm sorry for your loss, Rose.
But the article I posted did mention that:
In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.
Their body is already developed but the inner organs aren't, so no, at that stage they cannot feel any pain.
[/quote]

Thank you, Frankie. I know you are sincere when you say you are sorry for my loss. That means a lot.

Okay, perhaps the baby does not feel pain (I am still not ready to accept this as fact based on the one article) but, I still don't think that justifies an abortion. As I said before, if someone shoots me in the head while I am sleeping, I will feel no pain, but that does not make it right.

Before I go, I want to share a site for an article on abortion that I think is really good. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1116abortion.asp

Looking forward to hearing from you.


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 20, 2004, 11:10:46 pm

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774633 date=1100977513]

on 1100933601, twoleafclover wrote:
now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.

Just as you think they don't deserve to die because of an illness (which is kind of ironic, cause they'll probably die soon anyway) I think every child deserves to grow up happy. There's no way we can give each and every one of those children all they need, especially if the population rate keeps growing like this. This doesn't mean we should go to Africa and abort all their babies, though. I think willikins merely used those children as an example of overpopulation and unhappiness among orphans, which is true.
And no, it wasn't their doings but they still have to pay for it by growing up in poverty and with a disease they will soon die of. But I think simple birth control would help that region a lot.


on 1100933601, twoleafclover wrote:
and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.

You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.
[/quote]

i don't see how i'm hiding behind God just b/c i'm voicing my opinions. i really don't understand what point your trying to make. i don't believe that we have the authority to end lives...we're not God. this is my personal belief. i don't see how that's hiding behind God.

i never said everyone should obey the Bible, i said that i couldn't understand how someone could kill a child. this is my opinion/reasoning. but i believe a "fetus" is a child when the sperm comes into contact with the egg.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 21, 2004, 12:21:54 am

Concerning the whole "hiding behind God" issue:
If someone believes in God, then because of that belief, they will not find it necessary to have scientific proof. If they believe in the bible, then that is their proof. It is not scientific, but it relates to their morals and why they have them. And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases. Rose linked to an article, which I found to be more productive and more helpful to understanding her point of view. However, I can understand the idea that if one believes solely in God and solely in the bible, then that will affect how they feel about other people's lives and about abortion - it has to do with their own morals. If their belief in God is strong, they will find that to be strong evidence of their claim. I don't consider this "hiding" since it's not only God but their morals that they're using to explain their point of view. I don't think attacking them in this way is at all conducive to this debate. I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.

Concering killing off the next generation:
Hi. When did I ever say that in post? From where did you get this idea? There are still plenty of people in the world who want to have kids, and do so - take Rose an example. She has five healthy kids. She loves kids. And there are plenty of people in the world who are like her. And that's fine. I NEVER said we should kill the entire next generation. I said we should be responsible for what we decide, and that if we got pregnant by accident after taking many precautions against it, with the exception of abstaining completely, then we should be allowed to get an abortion. With the rate at which the population is growing, it is not nearly anything close to killing off the next generation if we allowed abortions for unwanted children.

Concerning "unwanted" children:
I don't know if you're interpreting the way I'm meaning this word correctly. I mean children who were not planned and will be tossed to social services or some such things instead of being cared for in it's biological family. In other words, they are unwanted by their parents, and, as far as I can tell, by the majority of people in the world.

Concerning statements like "my friend ____":
Yes, sometimes there are people who have different experiences. One friend who had trouble adopting someone does not convince me that there is an overabundance of people in the world who want to adopt children. In fact, a lot of people are adopting overseas more and more because of regulations set in the United States. So that means that more children in the US are being born and sent to social services without parents who want to adopt because it's just too much trouble. Also, social services is there to make sure that the child will be safe. How am I to know what they thought of the person trying to adopt? Maybe they felt they were too old or not patient enough? There are usually reasons for being denied adoption. Either way, one friend's experience is not at all indicative of the way in which the rest of the world functions. Such statements, for me, need the backup of physical proof; otherwise, I just ignore them. Using something as an example is okay, but basing your statement on one or even five events is not proof - it is a sample. I want to know about the majority.

Concerning abortion as a first resort:
I have never said abortion should be the first resort. I have said several times that I think people should get counseling first, and that they should educate themselves about preventative measures. However, if someone has been educated and something happened where they got pregnant, and they went to counseling and knew that they could not handle a child, I think that they should have the option to terminate the pregnancy.

Concerning abortion in general:
If the fetus is within the first trimester or whatever, then yes, I think a woman should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy. I don't think - nor have I ever explicityly said - that someone six or nine months pregnant should have that option, since the fetus, by then, has a nervous system and all that and that, to me, would actually feel like murder.

Concerning the nervous system:
Thanks to Frankie for that article. I realise that you have had a personal experience Rose, and I, too, am sorry that you had to go through a lot of loss in order to have a big family. My grandmother went through a few miscarriages and a stillborn birth and she's still sad about them; she managed to have six children in the end, though. However, my argument was that the fetus would not feel pain and while they may have a heartbeat and be in the first stages of formation, medical evidence shows that they cannot physically feel pain in the earliest stages of pregnancy. It is physical fact, so that's what I'm going to choose to believe. It's not that I hate life or that I think we should kill all babies, but if a child is going to have a hard childhood later, then I don't think we're doing them a favour by pointing them to a life alone where they are constantly miserable, which is case all too often.

Concerning Rose's article:
That is a good point. However, we are still talking about something that is feeding off of the woman's body (via placenta) and is physically affecting the woman. It is not like a woman can go through nine months and not notice a pregnancy. She has to stop working, she has to make sure she eats well, she has to exercise, she has to go through labour...it is all dependant on her. The fetus is not a separate entity or anything - it has to be inside the mother. To be somewhat crude, a tampon is inserted into the body but can be removed without depending on the woman; you cannot simply insert a baby and remove it; what I mean is that the baby is inside the woman and for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, it IS part of her.

You also stated that you have no problem with a woman getting tattoo or whatver, even if you didn't condone such an action on a personal level. Why is the exterior of the body different than the interior? Because the interior can give life? Her skin is as much a part of her body as her uterus, if you ask me. To be selective about which parts she can use of her own body seems, to me, to be contradictory and unfair.

Also, the health of the baby, the possibility of it growing without any defects - this all depends on how the mother behaves. If a smoker is having protected sex and all that and decides she doesn't want to have a baby because she doesn't think she can stop smoking, I would applaud her. Have you SEEN Down Syndrome? How is that fair to the child, to force them into a life where they are handicapped and suffering? Same goes for the AIDS in South Africa argument: I realise that you think shutting off that child's life, even if it is for a short time, is not okay, but do you know the amount of suffering an AIDS patient goes through? It's terrible! A few people actually try to kill themselves - and these are adults, mind you - because they can't handle going through that. And treatment is expensive; South Africans don't have that kind of money. You're saying we should let children live in pain for up to who knows how many years. Do you think your child would be happy and not blame you? I wouldn't be able to face a child if I knew that I'd brought them into the world like that. I'm not saying we should kill the child once it's born, but if we can stop it from feeling that pain for so many years...well, I think that's better and fairier to the child. If we are really talking about their interests instead of ours, then I really don't deem it considerate to force them into pain.

Quick explanation of Down Syndrome (http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic687.htm)

And that pain translates to emotional pain as well. In my eyes, we should do what's best for the child. If it is going to suffer, why not stop that from happening? To me, it seems like the rational thing to do. If I knew that I was going to be born into a world where I was going to die in ten years, I'd prefer not to live. Ten years of pain is not a true life, if you ask me.

Here (http://www.abolishadoption.com/statistics.html#ADOPTERS) are some statistics about adoption. The majority of parents search for their children and vice versa, so that was surprising. On the other hand, adoption seems to have a waiting period of 2-6 years. Imagine waiting to be adopted for six years.

I am quoting from the above link because I found it to be interesting:

[quote]o CONCERNING THE OUTCOME OF REUNION
Respondents are equally divided on the outcome of their reunion with an equal number of people replying that it is:not worth the effort, has problems but all parties are committed to working them out, or the individual was rejected immediately.[/quote]

So it's a split outcome, even in the case of reunions. Either way, adoption, to me, does not suggest a happy family in the end. This was only about reunions, not about adoption in general.

I would like to say that if the mother is fine with carrying the baby to term, then I have no problem with that. I am only talking about abortion for women who do not feel they can go through the pregnancy and have no want of bringing a child into the world, and have done everything in their power (in terms of pregnancy prevention) to make sure they were not brought into that position.

Concerning teenage pregnancy:
This is truly like an epidemic in my home state of California and it sickens me. I think there should be more efforts put into forcefully (yes, as in a required class) educating the younger generation so that they do not get pregnant. I think the best tool would be to see videos and also, if science and technology makes further advancements, to have them go through a virtual simulation of what it will feel like to be pregnant. In the end, whether or not a teenager has an abortion or goes through with the pregnancy, I think it will be equally taxing mentally.

Please, in the future, if you think I am saying that I should kill everyone on the planet, please ASK if that is what I'm saying. This is the third time I've had to say that I do not condone killing, and I am only talking about babies who are not planned and intended, the woman did what she could to prevent the birth, and she does not want to bring it into the world. Stop putting words in my mouth, if you could be so kind. If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's rather annoying seeing my arguments being translated to "kill everyone muahahahaha I'm evil." Okay?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 21, 2004, 12:51:44 am

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774842 date=1101014514]
Concerning the whole "hiding behind God" issue:
If someone believes in God, then because of that belief, they will not find it necessary to have scientific proof. If they believe in the bible, then that is their proof. It is not scientific, but it relates to their morals and why they have them. And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases. Rose linked to an article, which I found to be more productive and more helpful to understanding her point of view. However, I can understand the idea that if one believes solely in God and solely in the bible, then that will affect how they feel about other people's lives and about abortion - it has to do with their own morals. If their belief in God is strong, they will find that to be strong evidence of their claim. I don't consider this "hiding" since it's not only God but their morals that they're using to explain their point of view. I don't think attacking them in this way is at all conducive to this debate. I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.
[/quote]

thank you for saying that, i think that helped people to better understand mine, and other peoples perspectives :) and thank you also for seeing everyones outlook, even though you may not agree, i appreciate your ability to be open to all angles.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 21, 2004, 03:23:58 am

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774659 date=1100986225]
I feel this was sort of an unfair accusation. Don't we all give our point of view based on our beliefs? You feel that JessB and Twoleafclover state their positions based on their belief in God, and, yes, they do.[/quote]
Okay, so I will just ask how far does this opinion go? Do you agree with a law that says abortion should be an option for women who want it, or do you think it should be definitely illegal for every woman? All I was saying was, if you want it to be illegal you need to argue differently instead of using the bible's words, because the bible's words may not apply to everyone. If this is merely your opinion, that's fine, I understand that. All I'm saying is you cannot possibly convince atheists with those kind of arguments.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774659 date=1100986225]
But don't you give your views based on your belief that abortion is okay and that there is no God? We all give our opinions based on our own worldview.[/quote]
No, you're wrong. I was giving an example and said "if" I was an atheist. I am not. I do believe in God, just not in the bible ;)
I was saying abortion is okay for those who want it. There are so many children suffering, why would I want to "force" even more of them into this world? Again, this doesn't mean I want every unplanned pregnancy to be terminated, but if the mother strongly wishes to do so, I think it is her right.
I also agree with willikins that there should be far more educational programs so there'll be fewer "accidents". In no other place I've been to have I ever seen as many pregnant teenagers as in the US. Some high schools even need to have daycares, what's up with that?

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774659 date=1100986225]
As far as saying that if we believe the Bible's laws we should not pretend to be tolerant, I think that is a bit unfair, too. (Yes, I know life isn't fair.) My beliefs and convictions for myself are based on the Bible. But that does not mean that I don't respect you and your opinions.[/quote]
That's not what I was saying. If you believe the Bible's laws that is fine with me. I really don't care. But what you are trying to do (in case you want abortion to be illegal) is force your belief on those who don't share it. That is intolerant, isn't it?
Okay, you don't believe what the article said about the non-existent pain. But I'd rather not spend my time looking for more info of that sort, cause I'm sure you would still not believe it, would you? So why don't you try to find me an article that explains how a fetus CAN feel pain when their nervous system isn't fully developed? (I haven't looked at the site you posted yet, I'm too tired right now, but I'll read it later)

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774534 date=1100933601]
i don't see how i'm hiding behind God just b/c i'm voicing my opinions. i really don't understand what point your trying to make. i don't believe that we have the authority to end lives...we're not God. this is my personal belief. i don't see how that's hiding behind God.[/quote]
I might've misunderstood. You've said your friend had an abortion which you supported, so does that mean you wouldn't want it to be illegal because you respect other people's decision even though you don't agree with it? If so, I apologize. It's just that many people seem to use the bible's words as arguments lately, which is useless in debates as it remains a belief, not a proven fact (I don't mean specifically in this forum, I'm having a similar discussion in another forum as well).

My personal belief is also that I wouldn't have an abortion, unless there's a good reason for it, like rape for example (even my mother had an abortion once, because she was in a bad health condition and the baby would've probably died anyway). I do however recognize that my personal belief is not everybody else's.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774842 date=1101014514]
And while I may not agree with that, and while some others might want physical proof, I think the key to understanding people who have this view is that they will not provide you with the proof for which you are looking in most cases.
I realise you might want scientific proof but you're not always going to get it.[/quote]
I do not want scientific proof for God's existence (if that's what you mean) because I don't need it, I'm not an atheist. I do understand their view, but I'm not going to repeat everything again unless you want me to *lol*
If it's solely an opinion, that's fine. If it's supposed to be a valid argument to show why abortion should be illegal, I'm not even able to agree to disagree, because it's based on a belief many people don't share.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 21, 2004, 04:46:00 pm



[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774842 date=1101014514]


Concering killing off the next generation:
Hi. When did I ever say that in post? From where did you get this idea? There are still plenty of people in the world who want to have kids, and do so - take Rose an example. She has five healthy kids. She loves kids. And there are plenty of people in the world who are like her. And that's fine. I NEVER said we should kill the entire next generation. I said we should be responsible for what we decide, and that if we got pregnant by accident after taking many precautions against it, with the exception of abstaining completely, then we should be allowed to get an abortion. With the rate at which the population is growing, it is not nearly anything close to killing off the next generation if we allowed abortions for unwanted children.

[/quote]

If I was one of the ones that you felt implied that you wanted to "kill off the next generation," I sincerely apologize. :( I never meant to imply that and I never felt you believed that.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774842 date=1101014514]

Concerning Rose's article:
That is a good point. However, we are still talking about something that is feeding off of the woman's body (via placenta) and is physically affecting the woman. It is not like a woman can go through nine months and not notice a pregnancy. She has to stop working, she has to make sure she eats well, she has to exercise, she has to go through labour...it is all dependant on her. The fetus is not a separate entity or anything - it has to be inside the mother. To be somewhat crude, a tampon is inserted into the body but can be removed without depending on the woman; you cannot simply insert a baby and remove it; what I mean is that the baby is inside the woman and for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, it IS part of her.

You also stated that you have no problem with a woman getting tattoo or whatver, even if you didn't condone such an action on a personal level. Why is the exterior of the body different than the interior? Because the interior can give life? Her skin is as much a part of her body as her uterus, if you ask me. To be selective about which parts she can use of her own body seems, to me, to be contradictory and unfair.

Also, the health of the baby, the possibility of it growing without any defects - this all depends on how the mother behaves. If a smoker is having protected sex and all that and decides she doesn't want to have a baby because she doesn't think she can stop smoking, I would applaud her. Have you SEEN Down Syndrome? How is that fair to the child, to force them into a life where they are handicapped and suffering? Same goes for the AIDS in South Africa argument: I realise that you think shutting off that child's life, even if it is for a short time, is not okay, but do you know the amount of suffering an AIDS patient goes through? It's terrible! A few people actually try to kill themselves - and these are adults, mind you - because they can't handle going through that. And treatment is expensive; South Africans don't have that kind of money. You're saying we should let children live in pain for up to who knows how many years. Do you think your child would be happy and not blame you? I wouldn't be able to face a child if I knew that I'd brought them into the world like that. I'm not saying we should kill the child once it's born, but if we can stop it from feeling that pain for so many years...well, I think that's better and fairier to the child. If we are really talking about their interests instead of ours, then I really don't deem it considerate to force them into pain.

[/quote]

Yes, I realize a baby in the first 1/2 to 2/3s of the pregnancy can not survive outside of the mother's womb. But I still don't believe that makes the baby part of the mother's body. A newborn child and even very young children, would not survive without someone to take care of them, but that doesn't mean they aren't a seperate individual.

Perhaps the tatoos and piercings were not a good example. Let me think of a better one...okay, if a woman wants to donate a kidney to someone with kidney failture, (an act which I would think very heroic, by the way) tht is her body and she can have the kidney removed to do this without consulting anyone. But to "remove" a baby through abortion is a totally different thing.

As far as aborting a child so it won't suffer later...I don't see this as a valid reason either. Many children have been born with downs syndrome and other problems yet they are joyful, happy children. In college I volunteered in a home for the mentally disableed and they were the sweetest, happiest, most joyful people I have ever seen. I am so thankful their parents didn't abort them. As far as other problems like aids and things like that, I still don't believe that gives us a right to kill them. My husband's life is greatly complicated with Juvinille diabetes and he has a less than perfect life because of having it, but he is still thankful and happy to be alive. I have a son who was born with a severe birth defect and underwent ten surgeries and much pain but I am sure if I asked him if he wishes we had aborted him so that he would not have had to endure all that suffering, he would choose life. (On a side note, this child is such a joy. He is very unselfish and kind and wants to help others and I am sure the suffering he has endured has helped him become this kind of person). My Mom grew up in a horrible home situation with not enough to eat and physical abuse, but she is glad she was not aborted (her mom considered it). All of us will endure suffering to one degree or another in life, but that does not mean we should kill a baby because they will have less than perfect life. I don't think "possible future suffering" is an excuse to kill an unborn child.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774842 date=1101014514]
If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's rather annoying seeing my arguments being translated to "kill everyone muahahahaha I'm evil." Okay?
[/quote]

I don't think you are evil at all, Willikins :) In fact quite the opposite. :) I see you has someone who is very concerned about the world around you.

Frankie, I wanted to respond to several things in your post, too, but I need to go. I will write more later.


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frodo_Ubsessed on November 21, 2004, 04:50:10 pm

Okay here is my opinion on this rough subject. To me, it is so wrong. Abortion and birth control is murder to me. Maybe it is my Christian faith I get this from, but I believe everyone deserves to have a right to life and live. I mean not to offend anyone. :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Cristiel on November 21, 2004, 05:01:38 pm

I'm sorry but using birthcontrol has nothing to do with murder. What about using a condom to protect yourself against something like Aids? I hope you've ever heard of that...

Using birthcontrol has to do with being responsible, about understanding the possible consequences of having sex with someone.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frodo_Ubsessed on November 21, 2004, 05:06:16 pm

Excuse me, clearly I didn't make myself clear on that. I meant that abortion is murder. I don't like birth control, because it is doing exactly that, preventing birth.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 21, 2004, 05:07:55 pm

Rose, don't worry - it wasn't you who implied that, it was someone else. I just don't like having my arguments simplified into something monstrous.

As for the idea of not aborting children: I have seen a lot of people who have felt the opposite. One of my friends works with autistic children and half of them are depressed at the way they were born. She says it's difficult to work there sometimes because things can get emotional. I mean, she still likes the work and all that, but not everyone who is born with a disability is happy. I, for instance, have problems with my esophagus: I am not saying that I should haev been aborted because of it, or that I would have wanted to be aborted, even though the pain can sometimes be quite unbearable. What I'm saying is that if the mother did not want the child, has no want of going through the pregnancy and has tried everything she can to prevent it, then I see no reason for why making her go through with it is a good idea. I'm fully aware that not everyone who has some sort of problem or defect is unhappy, but many are; some work through it, others don't. But the ones who work through it usually have the support of their family; this would not necessarily be the case in adoption. Remember that adoption takes anywhere between 2-6 years; if a child was born with Down Syndrome and wasn't adopted for so many years, I think that the roots of depression would most likely set in because they'd already be plenty different from the other children and no one would be around that much to care for them and give them inspiration or hope.

Also, I stand by my earlier argument for a child who has HIV passed onto them. I have seen too many documentaries about AIDS and it really just isn't fair to the child in my opinion. I realise you think that the child would want to live because that way they would at least get to experience life, but if most of their life is spent in pain as their body deteriorates...to me, that seems wrong.

Even with the explanation of the kidney, she could have chosen to keep it and deny someone the right to it - someone who wasn't part of her body but needed her body to live, just as a child would need her body to live. Is it all right to deny an adult, then? For instance, I am not on the donor list anywhere, because my religion states that we are supposed to be buried whole (or that is my understanding of it). So I do not donate. I am keeping my organs for my own reasons and if someone needed my marrow or whatever, they would not be able to get it. Does that mean I'm killing that person - because I'm choosing my beliefs instead of donating a body part that might help them? And if a fetus is as much a person as you or I, then why is it different to deny them my uterus? Because it's not part of my religion? What if I make it part of my personal religion? Does it gain more validity then? I mean to say, if religion is the reason you are using, why can't I use my religion to the same capacity?

Lastly, the statement that birth control is murder is preposterous. Please research birth control before you speak. The whole idea is preventing the egg from being released. There is no killing of eggs; it is simply preventing the woman from ovulating in the first place. There is no formation between the sperm and the egg because the egg is not even there. There is no possible way for that to be considered murder when the eggs are still there and never get fertilised. Nothing is formed so nothing can be killed - hence no possible fetus to murder. Read up on it if you do not believe me. I am too tired to provide links at the moment.

ETA: Regarding preventing birth:

If you are against this, then you are going to the extent where you are telling people what to do with their bodies to the utmost, which is not cool. I can understand thinking that people who are ready to have sex are ready to get pregnant; however, we know quite well that this is not the case. And now that science has been advanced to develop birth control pills so that we can exercise our free will to enjoy sex if we choose - and this is only regarding pregnancy; we also have to be careful about STDs - then I think that that is much better than bringing in tons of unwanted children into the world, nevermind abortion. You are basically forcing people to conform to your ideas for this. It's fine to have an opinion, but this one feels more like you're telling people what to do. You can't blame people for wanting to prevent birth. People prevent colds as well. We prevent what we can't handle. I honestly think you need to respect that, since we are not harming anyone in the process.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 21, 2004, 07:11:08 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775092 date=1101073560]
I have a son who was born with a severe birth defect and underwent ten surgeries and much pain but I am sure if I asked him if he wishes we had aborted him so that he would not have had to endure all that suffering, he would choose life. (On a side note, this child is such a joy. He is very unselfish and kind and wants to help others and I am sure the suffering he has endured has helped him become this kind of person). [/quote]
But I'm sure your son is growing up in a loving home. He might think differently if he additionally grew up in poverty, orphaned and unloved. Some have to go through a lot in life and it actually makes them wonderful and caring people, I agree with that. But others who have to endure the same pain do not turn out that way. Two examples do not represent a majority. I know people who suffered and are quite happy now, but I also know some who wish they had never been born, and all of them were born in western societies where the basic needs of children are mostly fulfilled. Did you ever take a look at orphanages in 3rd world or even 2nd world countries? If I should ever adopt I wouldn't even consider a child of a first world country, because they're pretty well off compared to those who barely have anything to eat. A way too large percentage of them dies young and unhappy. If their mothers don't want to give birth to the child, they should be able to choose. If they want to have the baby even if they're not able to give it anything but love, that is also their choice. I never said we should kill them all.

I was also wondering about your comments of waiting until marriage.
Well, I do not intend to ever get married. Maybe I'll change my opinion someday, but right now the thought of marriage isn't very appealing to me. I don't see a real difference between living with a partner and being married to him, other than sharing the same name and paying less taxes. So how long should I have waited? Until I changed my opinion of marriage?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: I_LOVE_MY_BOYZ on November 21, 2004, 07:47:01 pm

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774633 date=1100977513]

You're doing the same thing as Jess, hiding behind God as an explanation. So, what if I was an atheist and told you I wanted to have an abortion? Obviously I do not share your belief, therefore this "God"-argument doesn't mean anything to me. Just in case you live in a secular country you shouldn't force your belief on others if you like to appear tolerant.
A fetus is not yet a full developed baby. Sure, it will be at some point, but when does its body really start functioning?
I'm a vegetarian, do I have to stop eating eggs now because some of them might not just be eggs but baby chickens?
Why should the state have control over a woman's body, when she's carrying something that's still a fetus, with no ability to live yet, no ability to feel anything?
If you think the bible's laws should be everyone's laws don't pretend to tolerate other people's beliefs, because you don't. If this was your belief and you'd truly tolerate others and respect their opinion, abortion wouldn't be an option for you, but you would still let others decide for themselves.
I wouldn't consider abortion for myself, but if others choose to have one, they should be able to.
[/quote]

*blinks* ... *blinks again* ... how was i even brought into this? I've only posted like... two things on this thread. Another, I don't really appreciate how you brought me into this post, Frankie. I think that you missunderstand me by thinking that i believe and stand for something ONLY because God says. ... Anything i stand for, i stand for because i have thought it through and reasoned with it. Not JUST because God said it, but because i think that it's what's best as well. Believe it or not, but i do have a mind of my own as well, and i do use it. Puppies can't feel anything when they're just born... but wouldn't you be upset if someone drown puppies just because it was believed they can't feel before they have their eyes open? These are human children. Give them a few months, and they'll not only be able to feel, they'll be able to reason, somethin that no animal can. Yet people get more upset over puppies being killed that babies? Don't get me wrong, i don't think puppies should be killed either. But if i had to chose between a dog living or a human being living, i wouldn't even have to think to chose the human. Why should we be given the descion to end somethign that we can't create? Scientists have tried many ways to "build" a human and give it life... but it never works. we can't go into a hospital and give a thing life, why should we be able to end it? that, in short... is my arguement . And please refrain from any future impulses to use me as "bad" example. I don't appreciate it.

*edit* ~ Happened to see another post. ~
Frankie, i've never seen you in such a hostile mood, but i have to admit i don't appreciate it.
[quote]Jess, somehow you always end up bringing your personal belief into these debates. Let me ask you this, what if people aren't destined to be anything but become what they decide to be?
Or hey, what if that baby grew up to become a serial killer? (maybe I should open up a thread about whether you're for or against death penalty?)
Sorry, but these are just lame excuses[/quote]
Frankie, you always end up bringing your personal beliefs into these debates as well. Name me someone that doesn't. And i didn't realize that predestination, something that millions of people all over the world believe, was lame. I, personally, think that you believing that a mother has the right to take the soon-to-be life of her soon-to-be baby is lame, but until this point i've refrained from saying so. I'm sorry you don't agree with my point of view, but for you to say that I am intolorant of other peoples belief is very hypocritical, since you, apparently, do not tolorate nor respect my point of view.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 21, 2004, 08:15:23 pm

I will ask that we please refrain from attacking each other. If you have a problem with a certain member or feel attacked, please try to resolve it via PMs. If that does not work, you are free to PM me or one of the global moderators.

Let's move on.

I did want to say one thing about killing puppies:

In the sense that you're bringing this example (I am not saying it is good or bad; it is simply an example) into the mix, I would have to say that by the time a human could drown a puppy (not something I condone), the puppy would have to be be out of the womb. As we are discussing what is going on inside the womb, that does not really seem, to me, to be relevant. Even if we are discussing aborting the puppy, that does not seem relevant for the simple fact that humans are not dogs. Dogs do not have the same cranial capacity; dogs do not have to pay money for their children; dogs do not work, and have to take time off of work to raise their puppies. Also, many dogs are neutered and spayed for their own health; and that is taking a preventative measure as well. But it's for their health, is it not? I have always been told by the vet to spay or neuter my cats, and I always have. My cats were outdoor cats, so this bit of information was rather relevant, as I did not want my cats siring all sorts of kittens all over the neighbourhood. The kittens would have died from neglect and not being cared for, since we did not keep track of where our cat went.

The point being that animals and humans are two entirely different species. Though even in animals, it has been proven that preventing copulating can be healthier for the animal. If you REALLY want to use that example in relation to humans, then I am going to have to argue that it can also be healthier for a woman to prevent children from being born, since it might be healthier for her mental state.

To recap: I am only using my cat as an example. However, it has been said by every vet to whom I've ever spoken that it is in the animal's best interests to be spayed or neutered - NO VET has EVER told me otherwise. It is also up on veterinarian websites. It has been proven scientifically.

Though really, I don't agree with bringing animals into this, since, like I've said, they are not in the same situations as humans at all. It is not a relevant example, in my opinion.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: blueangel21 on November 21, 2004, 11:22:11 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774427 date=1100903122]
[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774138 date=1100847216]
I didn't say we should kill each other, simply that we should not overpopulate the earth willingly. If we have a choice as to whether or not to have a child that will be sent off into the world alone, without parents, then I would say that that is the worse option. I do not see how you jumped from me saying "the world is overpopulated" to "let's kill everyone." I only said that putting depressed, unwanted children into a world that is already overpopulated is a bad notion, in my opinion. It's not fair to the child because they will not only be alone, but the more children are born, the less resources available there will be, and hence the double negative side to having a child you do not intend to keep.

[/quote]

Is the world really overpopulated? I know I am going to get totally flamed for that question. The media teaches that the world in overpopulated and, certainly, parts of the world is. But is the world in general overpopulated? I have never had anyone be able to give me enough evidence to truly believe that. Personally, I think that reason is used far too often as an excuse to promote abortion.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774152 date=1100849357]

How do you know orphans aren't depressed? In America, most children who were left by their parents are not happy, whether their parents put them up for adoption or passed away. No child likes being without parents. Divorce is hard enough, but to to not at all have the chance to grow up with the support and love and family experience of one's parents? That just sucks, in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are not depressed as well. But other people are not the topic here - unwanted children are. So it's not really relevant to the conversation.
[/quote]

I am afraid I don't quite understand this train of thought. So because someone might be unhappy later in life, we should abort them when they are preborn babies? Also, I can think of at several friends who were adopted as children who are very happy in life. But, that is actually beside the point. You don't kill someone because they might be unhappy some day. That would pretty much eliminate all of us

I can't find the place where you said the baby does not have enough of a nervous system to feel the pain of an abortion (I am sorry if I am quoting you incorrectly or misunderstood). How can we be sure of something like that? Obviously the child can't tell us. We do not know if they can feel pain or not. But, in a way, that is also beside the point. I would not feel pain if someone shot me in the head while I was sleeping, but that doesn't make it right.

I truly believe that 99% of the time a child is aborted because they are an inconvenience. I find this to be a selfish train of thought. My children are not always "convenient" (I was up with one for an hour in the middle of the night after she had a nightmare last night. I can't just take off and leave when ever I feel like it.) They certainly "cramp my style" at times. But I don't get rid of them for that reason. I know I am not a 15 year old, unwed girl that suddenly finds herself pregnant, but that can be avoided by avoiding sex. I don't understand the line of thinking that says, "I want to have sex because it's fun. If I get pregnant, I can always abort." I just don't get that! Has our society really become that self-centered?

I know I have come across much stronger than I usually do. The life of a preborn child is something I am passionate about. There are other things people do that I think are "wrong" but they don't affect a child who can't even defend him/herself so I can live with those things. However, this is something I really feel strongly about and felt like I had to "say my piece." I hope I have not lost any of the friends I have made on this forum because I really like all of you, but I just can't apologize for anything I have said.
[/quote]

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774595 date=1100968534]
[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774534 date=1100933601]


and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, Twoleafclover. Avoiding premarital sex would eliminate most of the reason given to abort a child. It would also eliminate a lot of sexual diseases.

I realize that the pressure is very strong for young people to have sex before marriage. But you know what, I have never met a person who has been a virgin on their wedding night who has regretted it. I have met many people who were not a virgin on their wedding night who regret it deeply. And I am not just talking about people who share my faith and beliefs. There is something so special about saving your body for that one special person. I am so thankful I have never had sex with anyone other than the love of my life, my husband. Neither has he. We saved our bodies for each other and there is something very sweet and special about that.

Frankie, thank you for posting the article. I have to say, though, that it did not convince me. I think I mentioned in a previous post that I have had seven early miscarriages. I held one of my tiny babies in my hand. He was only ten weeks gestation but he was fully formed. I could even tell he was a boy. I am not convinced that he would not have felt pain during an abortion.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I have come late for this discussion. ::) ;D And I also admit I have not read every post written here... but I fully agree with what Rose and twoleafclover has said... No one but God has the right to take a life for whatever reason... A baby that is still in a mother's womb is a LIFE... and that life is very precious in the Creator God's eyes!!! :D

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 22, 2004, 12:00:59 am

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775147 date=1101084421]
I think that you missunderstand me by thinking that i believe and stand for something ONLY because God says. ... Anything i stand for, i stand for because i have thought it through and reasoned with it. Not JUST because God said it, but because i think that it's what's best as well. Believe it or not, but i do have a mind of my own as well, and i do use it. [/quote]
That is because you keep talking about God as if his words (or let's say the bible) were the only truth there is. There are not only Christians in this world, there are many different religions and some people aren't religious at all. Telling them abortion is wrong because the bible says so is getting us nowhere.
Before getting all frustrated about my posts did you happen to read this excerpt?

Quote:
Okay, so I will just ask how far does this opinion go? Do you agree with a law that says abortion should be an option for women who want it, or do you think it should be definitely illegal for every woman?

In case you want abortion to be illegal because the bible says it must not be allowed under any circumstances, you appear intolerant. On the other hand, if it's just your personal belief that would not allow YOU to have an abortion but you'd still let others decide for themselves, you would truly respect their views.
This does not mean that anyone who is pro-life is intolerant, but using a belief as an argument is, because it's simply not shared by everyone. There are some who might say life begins when the heart starts beating, others say it begins even before that. These are arguments we can debate and eventually agree to disagree.

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775147 date=1101084421]
Frankie, you always end up bringing your personal beliefs into these debates as well. Name me someone that doesn't. And i didn't realize that predestination, something that millions of people all over the world believe, was lame. I, personally, think that you believing that a mother has the right to take the soon-to-be life of her soon-to-be baby is lame, but until this point i've refrained from saying so. I'm sorry you don't agree with my point of view, but for you to say that I am intolorant of other peoples belief is very hypocritical, since you, apparently, do not tolorate nor respect my point of view.[/quote]
Well let's see, my personal belief is that abortion is wrong. I wouldn't consider to have one myself, but who am I to say what other people should do? Aborting a fetus is not the same as murdering a baby, in my opinion.
I'm sorry, I didn't put it very clear. I meant to say you keep bringing your religious belief into these debates. This is of course your personal belief as well, but it's based on the bible, a religion, and religion isn't based on facts.
I do not appear tolerant? Well, I guess that's true. I am not tolerant of intolerance, it's as simple as that. People's freedoms and rights are limited because of intolerance, why should I respect that? I don't understand how gay people can hurt others by marrying, I don't understand why abortion shouldn't be an option when the fetus is not hurt because it's not able to feel any pain. On the other hand, you are at least emotionally hurting gays or the (possibly raped) mothers who are forced to go through nine months of pregnancy.

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775147 date=1101084421]
And i didn't realize that predestination, something that millions of people all over the world believe, was lame. I, personally, think that you believing that a mother has the right to take the soon-to-be life of her soon-to-be baby is lame, but until this point i've refrained from saying so.[/quote]
Sure, predestination is believed by many, and I don't think it's lame, just using it as an argument is. So what if that baby was predestined to be aborted, just as others are predestined to be still-borns or killed at an early age?
If I didn't give you any reasons why I think abortion should be legal, it would be lame. If I said a mother has that right because my religion says so, it would be lame. Again, predestination might be believed by you and many other people, but not everyone shares that belief. I described this as a lame excuse because you could go on forever speculating about what might be.

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775147 date=1101084421]
Puppies can't feel anything when they're just born... but wouldn't you be upset if someone drown puppies just because it was believed they can't feel before they have their eyes open? These are human children. Give them a few months, and they'll not only be able to feel, they'll be able to reason, somethin that no animal can. Yet people get more upset over puppies being killed that babies? Don't get me wrong, i don't think puppies should be killed either. But if i had to chose between a dog living or a human being living, i wouldn't even have to think to chose the human.[/quote]
Who gets more upset about a puppy's death? Me? Nah, please don't try to label me as a baby killer who prefers puppies. Of course I get upset whenever I hear of another baby that's been dumped into the trash because it was not wanted in this world.
When puppies are born they're able to breathe and live. A small fetus can't. But sure, if a dog chooses to have an abortion as long as the puppies' organs aren't developed to function correctly I would be okay with it. Of course this is absurd because dogs can't tell us what they want or think but still we collect them off the streets to spay and neuter them.
I totally agree with willikins on this issue so I'm not going to discuss it any further.

[quote author=Jess_B link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg775147 date=1101084421]
Why should we be given the descion to end somethign that we can't create? Scientists have tried many ways to "build" a human and give it life... but it never works. we can't go into a hospital and give a thing life, why should we be able to end it? that, in short... is my arguement . And please refrain from any future impulses to use me as "bad" example. I don't appreciate it.[/quote]
Hm? What do you mean we can't go into a hospital and give a thing life? That's what mothers do every day, giving life to a baby. Sure, scientists have failed to create humans so far, but that's because they're not trying it the natural way. Any man and woman can create life, we do it every day. You probably mean to say that God is actually creating the baby, right? So this is your "argument"?
You're saying we shouldn't end life. Well, what is life really, when does it begin? See, a fetus, to me, is not the same as a person that is already born. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's like a little shell, it already appears to be human and it surely will be, but on the inside there's nothing yet that makes a real person. No functional nervous system, organs, no emotions yet.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 22, 2004, 12:19:08 am

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=45#msg774864 date=1101025438]

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774534 date=1100933601]
i don't see how i'm hiding behind God just b/c i'm voicing my opinions. i really don't understand what point your trying to make. i don't believe that we have the authority to end lives...we're not God. this is my personal belief. i don't see how that's hiding behind God.[/quote]
I might've misunderstood. You've said your friend had an abortion which you supported, so does that mean you wouldn't want it to be illegal because you respect other people's decision even though you don't agree with it? If so, I apologize. It's just that many people seem to use the bible's words as arguments lately, which is useless in debates as it remains a belief, not a proven fact (I don't mean specifically in this forum, I'm having a similar discussion in another forum as well).

My personal belief is also that I wouldn't have an abortion, unless there's a good reason for it, like rape for example (even my mother had an abortion once, because she was in a bad health condition and the baby would've probably died anyway). I do however recognize that my personal belief is not everybody else's.
[/quote]

i thought i edited that part out, i read over it and thought it sounded too snippy. but anyways, yes that's how i feel, i believe everyone should have the opportunity to do whatever they feel is right. appology accepted, no hard feelings :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 22, 2004, 04:11:08 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=30#msg774534 date=1100933601]
quote from NIX

Quote from: twoleafclover on November 19, 2004, 02:13:41 AM
i said that b/c you justified abortion by the world being too over populated

and how do you know orphans are depressed? i've known people who lived with model families who were bi-polar..


I don't want to pick a fight or anything , but have a look at 3rd world countries, obviously mainly in Africa. I'm from South Africa which is more of a 2nd world country if you want to put it like that. It is devastating to see how many unwanted children there are, and even more devastating is that 95% of them have HIV or AIDS and nobody wants them. This is another issue. Mothers with AIDS conceiving and giving birth, there are drug treatments but they are way to expensive for most Africans. What does one do then? You have AIDS, you fall pregnant, your child is born with HIV/AIDS. Do you have an abortion to "save" the child from death or do you have the child, raise him/her with your family and wait for them to die, or do you give them up for adoption and let them die in an orphanage?

It's actually so sad, the poverty in Africa which denies people the right to chose.

Oh well...

sorry i had to do it this way..my computers not letting me quote things right now, anyway..

no offense taken :) i respect your opinions just as you do mine.. now to answer your inquiry,

i agree it is sad, about orphans with aids and such, and to let you know, and anyone else who cares, i do plan on going to africa when i get done with nuring in college, to help the sick children, that's one of the reasons i'm going. just so i don't look like i'm talking a bunch of hot air, i feel very passionate about this subject. africa is the only place i want to go, b/c i know there is much help needed there.

now, i don't understand your logic, yes it's sad that nobody wants the children who are sick, i agree..but,...so what..they deserve to die, just b/c they INHERITED an illness,..it wasn't even their doings? there are people in this world who care for them, me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.

and this all ties back into my first post, where if everyone would just be careful when having sex..there would be no "unwanted" children in the world. i personally just can't comprehend how just b/c a child would have/has a disease, it justifies killing them, every child is beautiful in God's eyes, and only He has the right to take their lives. I forget the verse, but there's something in the Bible about this..it says, you would be better to tie a milstone around your neck and throw yourself into the ocean, than to face the punishment you will face if you harm one of my little ones. and every child is just that, a child of God.
[/quote]

It's fine :)


Quote:
me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.


I never made it sound so harsh.... Have you ever seen what a child with AIDS looks like and how they suffer? I'm not saying it's right or wrong to take the life of an unborn child, the point I'm trying to make is that what is more sensible? In Africa most orphanages cannot afford to look after 90% of these poor children. I think the child will most likely suffer more on earth (or in Africa for this matter) than in heaven (or any other place for other religions).

Anyway, people can debate about this for years, at the end of the day the decision is probably up to the mother of the child. Whether it be wrong or right I'm sure that God will be the true judge of that persons decision that they made.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 22, 2004, 04:48:32 am

Anyway, my replying and "debating" to this topic is finished. Most opinions, in many different ways, have been voiced and have been super interesting for me. This is a topic that will never have a solid agreed upon answer throughout the world. Thank goodness everyone is different, can you imagine how boring earth would be if we were all the same?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 22, 2004, 05:24:27 am

[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775244 date=1101114668]

Quote:
me for example, and i don't understand how anyone could say, well if this child is born, it will have aids..so lets just kill it now.


I never made it sound so harsh.... Have you ever seen what a child with AIDS looks like and how they suffer? I'm not saying it's right or wrong to take the life of an unborn child, the point I'm trying to make is that what is more sensible? In Africa most orphanages cannot afford to look after 90% of these poor children. I think the child will most likely suffer more on earth (or in Africa for this matter) than in heaven (or any other place for other religions).
[/quote]

well you didn't say it in those exact words but isn't that basically what you're saying..the child is ill, so put it out of it's misery? i'm only asking b/c that's the impression i got, if you meant something else please do tell me.

i have seen what a child with aids looks like, among many other diseases, as my major is nursing in college. i agree it is unfortunate, but they don't deserve to die. if you were in the childs place, would you want someone to end your life? or would you rather die when your time came naturally? i would rather live my life with what God intended me to have, and die a natural death, as opposed to some doctor, who thinks he's God, and thinks he has the right to end my life simply b/c i'm not in good health. i actually find that to be racist...but i won't go into my reasoning/examples for that as i think it will cause too much trouble.

my personal belief is that God intended for that child to inherit that illness, or be sick..and it's not my place, or anybody elses on earth to end their lives. b/c that's getting in the way of what God wanted, when He's ready to take them to Heaven, He will. so my opinion of what's more sensible, is to let them be, and enjoy what time they have here on earth.

let me say, this is only -my- opinion. i fully respect yours. and i agree with what you said, that this issue will never, ever be settled.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: blueangel21 on November 22, 2004, 06:15:51 am

Never say never, tlc... ;)

And yes, I agree with you Nix, the world will indeed be boring if we were all exactly the same... God has made each one of us with our own unique character traits, talents and skills.

How unfortunate for those who never got the chance to live their lives the way God planned them to, just because their life was cut short in one of the cruelest of ways... just because it was their mom's/dad's choice, or because they are unable to feel pain anyway, or because their life will be probably be miserable anyway, or because the world is too overpopulated already so it's all right to take the lives of these little ones... ??? :'(

I also agree with your statement that God is the true Judge, and someday everyone of us will bow before him and give Him the respect and reverence that He alone deserves. OH HAPPY DAY!!! ;D

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 22, 2004, 08:01:36 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
well you didn't say it in those exact words but isn't that basically what you're saying..the child is ill, so put it out of it's misery? i'm only asking b/c that's the impression i got, if you meant something else please do tell me.[/quote]

Not put it out, but prevent it from even having misery in the first place... make sense?

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
i have seen what a child with aids looks like, among many other diseases, as my major is nursing in college. i agree it is unfortunate, but they don't deserve to die. if you were in the childs place, would you want someone to end your life? or would you rather die when your time came naturally?[/quote]

If I was suffering I would want that, however, I would've wanted it before I was even born and before I knew what it was to suffer.


on 1101119067, twoleafclover wrote:
i would rather live my life with what God intended me to have, and die a natural death, as opposed to some doctor, who thinks he's God, and thinks he has the right to end my life simply b/c i'm not in good health. i actually find that to be racist...but i won't go into my reasoning/examples for that as i think it will cause too much trouble.


But you could get shot in the head by a thief or die in a car accident, that's not a natural death... (sorry for it being so blunt :-\)

Just think about it carefully, it might even been God's decision to have the parent/s make that decision to end the childs life, you never know. Everything happens for a reason. To me, bringing a child that I know will die soon (it could be the same day or even 3,4 or 5 years later) into this world would be too painful. Knowing that the child will be sufferring is more cruel to me than abortion.

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
my personal belief is that God intended for that child to inherit that illness, or be sick..and it's not my place, or anybody elses on earth to end their lives. b/c that's getting in the way of what God wanted, when He's ready to take them to Heaven, He will. so my opinion of what's more sensible, is to let them be, and enjoy what time they have here on earth.[/quote]

Don't forget the devil also does his work on this planet. How can you enjoy your time on earth when all you know if pain and being sick all the time?

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]let me say, this is only -my- opinion. i fully respect yours. and i agree with what you said, that this issue will never, ever be settled.
[/quote]

I really understand totally, every question you have have to ask I have a question to answer you with. This will be something that will carry on forever. Unto each his own.
:)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 22, 2004, 09:03:20 am

I tried to modify the post I goofed up and I couldn't figure out how to do it so I am going to rewrite the basic ideas and delete the old one.

Before I begin, I have a totally off topic question that is pure curiosity (okay, nosiness) and nothing else. Willikins and Frankie, I have only seen your posts on "deeper," more controvosial topics and not on the lighter topics (perhaps I missed them). I mean I never see you on the "Random Questions" thread or any of the Elijah threads. That is absolutely fine and there is nothing wrong at all with that. I am just being curious. Do you enjoy the debates more then just "frivolous" threads (I enjoy both personally )? Ignore this paragraph if I am being too nosy. Just wondering...

Oh, another nosy question..Frankie, you are from Germany, right? Is German your first language? You write English so well.

Willikins, in a previous post, I meant to thank you for your kind words about my losses. It means a lot when people care about the loss of my seven little miscarried babies (also one stillborn daughter) and acknowledge the loss instead of brushing it off. Thank you.

Frankie, to be honest, yes, I personally do believe abortion should be illegal (though I do not "condemn" or think badly of someone if I know they have had an abortion). And, you are right, I can not convince those who do not believe the Bible of this. I guess the only way I could argue is to try to convince them that life does begin at conception. How can the seperate heartbeat and the different blood type (most of the time) and 50% of the time different sex be denied? The Mom and the baby are two individuals. I don't understand the belief that the baby is "part of the mother." I guess if someone is an atheist, that is the only argument I have. But I believe it is a strong one.

Frankie, apparently I didn't read what you wrote carefully enough. I misunderstood and thought you were saying you were an atheist. I apologize.

Also, in response to one of Frankie's comments, I am not sure whether I believe the baby feels pain in the first trimester or not. I realize I get rather emotional and perhaps don't think as logically as I should on that subject, because of personal things that have happened in my life. However, as I said before, that is beside the point. It doesn't make it right to kill someone just because they don't feel pain. There are many ways to kill someone without their feeling any pain, but that doesn't make it okay.

Willikins, as far as the kidney example, I see a difference between denying something that might give life and actually taking a life. As far as your religion believing in keeping the body whole, I find that very interesting. I had not heard of that before. But I do believe that is in your complete right. As I said, i believe there is a difference between not sacrificing something of your OWN to save a life and deliberately taking another life.

And back to one of Frankie's comments, I hesitated to use personal examples (of my son, my husband and my Mom's suffering) because I know that a couple of examples don't prove anything. I was just trying to make the point that "possible future pain or unhappiness" is not a good reason to kill an unborn child.

And as a matter of fact, I HAVE seen orphanages in third world countries. My parents were missionaries and I grew up in Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Peru. I have seen starving children. I have seen little boys begging in the streets. I have been in tiny, dirt floor huts the size of my small livingroom where ten people lived. I have been to orphanages where children did not even cry any more because there were not enough caretakers and the children learned crying did no good. But, in spite of all that, I still stand by my pro-life convictions. In spite of the horrible things these people endured, I really believe they still would have chosen to live over being aborted. The human will to live is strong. People will endure horrible conditions and still chose life over death. If not than everyone in these conditions would be commiting suicide. I truly believe that if you asked the vast majority of these people, "Do you wish you had been aborted?" they would say, "NO!"

As far as waiting for marriage to have sex, I admit that is a strong, personal belief of mine based my literal intepretation of the Bible. If someone does not believe the Bible the same way I do, there is no way I will convince them.

Hope all of you are having a good day (or night, depending on what side of the earth you live on). :)



Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 22, 2004, 12:49:36 pm

@Rose: I think you just forgot to put a quote-tag somewhere in your post. Happens to me all the time and I end up edititing my posts like 3 times in a row *lol*

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775278 date=1101132200]
Before I begin, I have a totally off topic question that is pure curiosity (okay, nosiness) and nothing else. Willikins and Frankie, I have only seen your posts on "deeper," more controvosial topics and not on the lighter topics (perhaps I missed them). I mean I never see you on the "Random Questions" thread or any of the Elijah threads. That is absolutely fine and there is nothing wrong at all with that. I am just being curious. Do you enjoy the debates more then just "frivolous" threads (I enjoy both personally )? Ignore this paragraph if I am being too nosy. Just wondering...
Oh, another nosy question..Frankie, you are from Germany, right? Is German your first language? You write English so well.[/quote]
I usually don't read the threads about Elijah as I'm not really a "fan" of his ;) A friend of mine was having some troubles with the A+F site and needed a translator, so that's what brought me here. I do read other off-topic posts every now and then but the controversial ones are more interesting to me.
Yes, German is my first language, and I'm actually not writing English as well as I'd like to, but thanks anyway :)

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775278 date=1101132200]
Frankie, to be honest, yes, I personally do believe abortion should be illegal (though I do not "condemn" or think badly of someone if I know they have had an abortion). And, you are right, I can not convince those who do not believe the Bible of this. I guess the only way I could argue is to try to convince them that life does begin at conception. How can the seperate heartbeat and the different blood type (most of the time) and 50% of the time different sex be denied? The Mom and the baby are two individuals. I don't understand the belief that the baby is "part of the mother." I guess if someone is an atheist, that is the only argument I have. But I believe it is a strong one.[/quote]
Thank you. Yes, I do consider this to be an argument that EVERY person has to deal with no matter what their religion is.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775278 date=1101132200]
Frankie, apparently I didn't read what you wrote carefully enough. I misunderstood and thought you were saying you were an atheist. I apologize.[/quote]
No need to apologize, I'm quite used to being misunderstood *g*

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775278 date=1101132200]
Also, in response to one of Frankie's comments, I am not sure whether I believe the baby feels pain in the first trimester or not. I realize I get rather emotional and perhaps don't think as logically as I should on that subject, because of personal things that have happened in my life. However, as I said before, that is beside the point. It doesn't make it right to kill someone just because they don't feel pain. There are many ways to kill someone without their feeling any pain, but that doesn't make it okay.[/quote]
Well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. This is not my only argument though, Jess mentioned that puppies cannot feel pain immediately after they're born, I didn't know that, but if someone kills them at that point I still consider it murder. Even if it was proven that babies can't feel anything right after birth I'd still think of that as murder, it's just that a fetus to me is not yet a person.
You think of it as an individual, I think of it as part of the mother, because (excuse this comparison) a fetus is like a parasite needing a host in order to survive. They get their "food" and vitamins from the "host" all at the expense of the mother. They're not able to actually live like an individual until they leave the mother's body. Of course they're still kind of parasites after they're born *lol* but their dependence on us is not the same as a fetus'.
However, I do not think fetuses should be aborted once they're able to feel pain.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775278 date=1101132200]
And as a matter of fact, I HAVE seen orphanages in third world countries. My parents were missionaries and I grew up in Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Peru. I have seen starving children. I have seen little boys begging in the streets. I have been in tiny, dirt floor huts the size of my small livingroom where ten people lived. I have been to orphanages where children did not even cry any more because there were not enough caretakers and the children learned crying did no good. But, in spite of all that, I still stand by my pro-life convictions. In spite of the horrible things these people endured, I really believe they still would have chosen to live over being aborted. The human will to live is strong. People will endure horrible conditions and still chose life over death. If not than everyone in these conditions would be commiting suicide.[/quote]
Well, all I can say is I don't agree with it. I know, once you're born, the will to live is strong but it doesn't need suicide to starve to death or to die of AIDS. When they're brought into this life because their mothers are forced to give birth to them, most of them only have a little amount of time to live. I'm even having trouble with calling that a life, I would describe it as a struggle and constant suffering. Just imagine how much more we could give to those children if there was birth control and available abortion clinics for those who want it. Again, I'm not trying to say we should abort all their babies, if an AIDS-infected mother wants to have her baby, she should have it. Abortion always has to remain the last option. But I think the more unwanted children we "force" into this world, the less resources are available for them. 50 orphans cannot be fed, clothed and loved if there's only food, clothes and caretakers for about 15.
Maybe you're right about the world not being overpopulated. Maybe we're just being told it is, I don't know what the criterias are for saying we're overpopulated. Is there not enough food? Western societies have way too much, while poor countries have the very least. But before we cannot share it properly I will let others choose whether to give birth or not.

[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775270 date=1101128496]
But you could get shot in the head by a thief or die in a car accident, that's not a natural death... (sorry for it being so blunt :-\)
Just think about it carefully, it might even been God's decision to have the parent/s make that decision to end the childs life, you never know. Everything happens for a reason. [/quote]
This is (almost) exactly what I believe.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: The Used on November 22, 2004, 04:20:05 pm

[color=Green]It's pretty simple to me: The mother should have the right to decide what she wants to do with HER OWN baby.

That's it. Simple eh? I know If I had sex, got pregnant, didn't want the baby, I would DIFFENITLY want the right to decide the future of my own baby. Not what some people in the government have decided for me.

(Frankie81, I totaly agree with you aswell, you're really good explaining yourself, rock on. :))[/color]

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 22, 2004, 04:42:11 pm

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775382 date=1101145776]

I usually don't read the threads about Elijah as I'm not really a "fan" of his ;) A friend of mine was having some troubles with the A+F site and needed a translator, so that's what brought me here. I do read other off-topic posts every now and then but the controversial ones are more interesting to me.
Yes, German is my first language, and I'm actually not writing English as well as I'd like to, but thanks anyway :)


[/quote]

Thanks for answering my nosy question. :) You really do a great job in English. I can speak Spanish fluently, but I can't write it at all.

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775382 date=1101145776]

Well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. This is not my only argument though, Jess mentioned that puppies cannot feel pain immediately after they're born, I didn't know that, but if someone kills them at that point I still consider it murder. Even if it was proven that babies can't feel anything right after birth I'd still think of that as murder, it's just that a fetus to me is not yet a person.
You think of it as an individual, I think of it as part of the mother, because (excuse this comparison) a fetus is like a parasite needing a host in order to survive. They get their "food" and vitamins from the "host" all at the expense of the mother. They're not able to actually live like an individual until they leave the mother's body. Of course they're still kind of parasites after they're born *lol* but their dependence on us is not the same as a fetus'.
However, I do not think fetuses should be aborted once they're able to feel pain.

[/quote]

Like you say, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about this one. I would imagine we could go back and forth on it for 100 posts and still not convince the other one. :) I do wonder, though, why it is okay to kill a baby one day and not the next. Why is okay to kill the baby the day before they can feel pain but not the day after. Why is it okay to kill a baby the day before they are born but not the day after. I realize you, personally, don't beleive in late term abortions, Frankie, I do not mean that last sentence to be directly to you but to pro-abortion people in general.

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775382 date=1101145776]

Well, all I can say is I don't agree with it. I know, once you're born, the will to live is strong but it doesn't need suicide to starve to death or to die of AIDS. When they're brought into this life because their mothers are forced to give birth to them, most of them only have a little amount of time to live. I'm even having trouble with calling that a life, I would describe it as a struggle and constant suffering. Just imagine how much more we could give to those children if there was birth control and available abortion clinics for those who want it. Again, I'm not trying to say we should abort all their babies, if an AIDS-infected mother wants to have her baby, she should have it. Abortion always has to remain the last option. But I think the more unwanted children we "force" into this world, the less resources are available for them. 50 orphans cannot be fed, clothed and loved if there's only food, clothes and caretakers for about 15.
Maybe you're right about the world not being overpopulated. Maybe we're just being told it is, I don't know what the criterias are for saying we're overpopulated. Is there not enough food? Western societies have way too much, while poor countries have the very least. But before we cannot share it properly I will let others choose whether to give birth or not.

[/quote]

Once again, I think we are at an impasse (spelling?). I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue as well. I think we could go back and forth on this all day, too, and not change each other's minds. :) I do want to reinerate one thing I said earlier, though. All of this could be avoided if no one had premarital sex. I know we probably won't ever agree on that issue either, though.

[quote author=Operation Iraqi Liberation-OIL link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775485 date=1101158405]
[color=Green]It's pretty simple to me: The mother should have the right to decide what she wants to do with HER OWN baby.

That's it. Simple eh? I know If I had sex, got pregnant, didn't want the baby, I would DIFFENITLY want the right to decide the future of my own baby. Not what some people in the government have decided for me.

(Frankie81, I totaly agree with you aswell, you're really good explaining yourself, rock on. :))[/color]
[/quote]

I don't think a mother has a right to kill a baby, even her own. It would be murder if she did it after birth. What difference does a few months and a birth canal make? However, I realize you are firm in your belief and I am firm in mine, so I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, Fiona. These debates are kind of "fun" but I really wonder if anyone ever changes anyone's mind? ::)

And as far as Frankie being good at explaining herself, I agree completely. She is very articulate and gives well thought out arguements.

Once again, I would like to thank most of you for sticking to the issues. If people started calling each other "stupid" or things like that (either side) I would quickly leave the debate. I hate it when people make disagreements turn nasty. That is one thing I love about this forum, people can disagree and still get along and be friends.

"Talk" to you girls later. :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 22, 2004, 09:03:49 pm

I realise that most of this has been said so I really will be brief this time.

In response to Rose, yes, I do wander around the boards. The RQ stuff if usually stuff I have answered before, unless you mean the Fun Stuff section, in which case, no, I don't really visit that forum since it's a little too spammy for my tastes. As it is, I mod the fan art section, so I comment here and there about pretty things (I highly suggest checking it out; there are a lot of talented people there who can make you a banner and what not). I also frequent many other boards besides this one, mostly because I don't really hold an interest in Elijah at all. Eh. The ironic thing is that I used to shy away from these discussions cause they basically DID turn into "you're stupid!" "No, you're stupid!" arguments.

I don't know that debates make people change their mind, but aren't they good for discussion? Isn't it good to discuss how we feel and why? I've learned a few things I did not know before due to these discussions. It also helps me re-evalute the thoughts I have. I haven't really changed my mind but I've learned a lot so there you are. ;)

I do not agree that the mother should always have control over her child. I think that, within reason (i.e. a fetus with no central nervous system), a woman should have the choice to remove the child before it's born, but I don't think a child should be removed at will. That type of thinking scares me; it reminds me those people who say "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" In my opinion, unless your child is off on a killing spree or what have you, then no, you don't have the right to "take them out" once they are born.

I'm going to stop here, cause some of the other comments are ones that I feel do not really have an answer right now.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 22, 2004, 11:19:30 pm

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775617 date=1101175429]
I realise that most of this has been said so I really will be brief this time.

[/quote]

I don't know how much longer I will post on this thread. It has been "fun" but I think most of us have presented our arguments from a couple of different directions. I really can't think of anything to say on the subject that I haven't already said. Though maybe something new will come up that I haven't thought of yet.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775617 date=1101175429]


In response to Rose, yes, I do wander around the boards. The RQ stuff if usually stuff I have answered before, unless you mean the Fun Stuff section, in which case, no, I don't really visit that forum since it's a little too spammy for my tastes. As it is, I mod the fan art section, so I comment here and there about pretty things (I highly suggest checking it out; there are a lot of talented people there who can make you a banner and what not). I also frequent many other boards besides this one, mostly because I don't really hold an interest in Elijah at all. Eh. The ironic thing is that I used to shy away from these discussions cause they basically DID turn into "you're stupid!" "No, you're stupid!" arguments.


[/quote]

What?! No interest in Elijah!? :o Did I read that correctly?? :o Just kidding! :) I am not a huge Elijah fan myself, though I have grown to appreciate him more since joining this forum. (I am a huge LOTR fan, though, and I also think highly of Sean Astin)

I will check out the fan art section. I haven't been to go much to that section nor the fanfic nor the poetry since my time on the forum is limited due to five sweet little reasons. :) But I will take the time to go to the fan art some time soon.

[quote author=willikins link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775617 date=1101175429]


I don't know that debates make people change their mind, but aren't they good for discussion? Isn't it good to discuss how we feel and why? I've learned a few things I did not know before due to these discussions. It also helps me re-evalute the thoughts I have. I haven't really changed my mind but I've learned a lot so there you are. ;)


[/quote]

Me too, to everything you said here.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 22, 2004, 11:52:50 pm

[quote author=**NiX** link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775270 date=1101128496]
[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
well you didn't say it in those exact words but isn't that basically what you're saying..the child is ill, so put it out of it's misery? i'm only asking b/c that's the impression i got, if you meant something else please do tell me.[/quote]

Not put it out, but prevent it from even having misery in the first place... make sense?

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
i have seen what a child with aids looks like, among many other diseases, as my major is nursing in college. i agree it is unfortunate, but they don't deserve to die. if you were in the childs place, would you want someone to end your life? or would you rather die when your time came naturally?[/quote]

If I was suffering I would want that, however, I would've wanted it before I was even born and before I knew what it was to suffer.


on 1101119067, twoleafclover wrote:
i would rather live my life with what God intended me to have, and die a natural death, as opposed to some doctor, who thinks he's God, and thinks he has the right to end my life simply b/c i'm not in good health. i actually find that to be racist...but i won't go into my reasoning/examples for that as i think it will cause too much trouble.


But you could get shot in the head by a thief or die in a car accident, that's not a natural death... (sorry for it being so blunt :-\)

Just think about it carefully, it might even been God's decision to have the parent/s make that decision to end the childs life, you never know. Everything happens for a reason. To me, bringing a child that I know will die soon (it could be the same day or even 3,4 or 5 years later) into this world would be too painful. Knowing that the child will be sufferring is more cruel to me than abortion.

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]
my personal belief is that God intended for that child to inherit that illness, or be sick..and it's not my place, or anybody elses on earth to end their lives. b/c that's getting in the way of what God wanted, when He's ready to take them to Heaven, He will. so my opinion of what's more sensible, is to let them be, and enjoy what time they have here on earth.[/quote]

Don't forget the devil also does his work on this planet. How can you enjoy your time on earth when all you know if pain and being sick all the time?

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=60#msg775252 date=1101119067]let me say, this is only -my- opinion. i fully respect yours. and i agree with what you said, that this issue will never, ever be settled.
[/quote]

I really understand totally, every question you have have to ask I have a question to answer you with. This will be something that will carry on forever. Unto each his own.
:)

[/quote]

i understand what you're saying. and yes you could get shot in the head and killed, etc (and no that wasn't harsh sounding :)). but i believe if God allowed that to happen, then it was meant to happen to me. horrible things happen every day, nobody said life was a barrel of roses. but i understand what you're saying, we just have different outlooks on it is all, nothing wrong with that at all =)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 23, 2004, 12:51:34 am

Cool ;D

I think basically if there is a "valid reason" (deformed, ill, etc) why the mother wants to terminate the pregnancy then it should be "accepted" and understood by others who are anti-abortion... So at the end of the day the decision is actually up to the parent whether it be legal or not to have abortions.

I would NEVER just go for an abortion because I was being irresponsible and stupid. I will most definitely keep my child, whether I'm married or single. The only time I would consider it is if there is something seriously wrong with the fetus, like all the possibilities we have discussed.

I dunno, this is actually a topic that can run into the death penalty (I think willikins brought that up earlier)... This is all pretty interesting or me... I'm just not big into debating over the net because my typing skills are up to *bleh*...

Anyway, thanks a lot ;D

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: twoleafclover on November 23, 2004, 03:06:26 am

you're welcome :-*

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: blueangel21 on November 23, 2004, 03:09:00 am

Awwww... I love happy endings! ;D :P

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 23, 2004, 03:49:01 am

lol.. alrighty then..... :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 23, 2004, 09:35:28 am

Just a few more things I wanna reply to.


on 1101159731, Rose wrote:
I do wonder, though, why it is okay to kill a baby one day and not the next.

Because some people don't view them as real babies yet. They're still fetuses and "part of the mother".


on 1101159731, Rose wrote:
Why is okay to kill the baby the day before they can feel pain but not the day after.

Because even fetuses shouldn't be hurt if they can feel it, imo.


on 1101159731, Rose wrote:
I do want to reinerate one thing I said earlier, though. All of this could be avoided if no one had premarital sex.

*g* That's true, but not very realistic in a world full of different religious and non-religious people.
I also disagree that it could be avoided if we all waited till marriage, or if some like me would never choose to have sex because they don't plan to get married *g*. Not every couple wants to have children, birth control is not 100% safe, condoms are not 100%, and if you have a "cure" for those sick rapists, please let everyone know. ;)

Anyway, I think I've also said everything to explain my point of view on this topic. I guess I'll check out the God-thread next :P ;D

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: littlehafling on November 23, 2004, 10:57:24 am

Hey everyone. In my only post on this thread, I'd like to rectify something I said. I got caught up in the moment and said something about people just being idiots sometimes. I realize this was harsh, and didn't quite come across the way it should have. They're certainly not idiots; they just lack...caution, I guess I could say. And judging from my post, I lack tact. ::) I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. I just thought I'd fix my mess-up. Please understand! 8)

To willikins, I believe you misunderstood. Or maybe I just said it the wrong way, but I wasn't trying to generalize, or anything else you said. There's nothing wrong with the person who decides to have premarital sex. Maybe I made it sound that way, and for that I apologize. I just don't think it's wise.

I don't want a baby either, willikins. I just don't want children. There's a time and a place for deciding that of course, but for now I don't. Sure, there's "protection", but sometimes protection fails to work. I just think it's a risky thing, having premarital sex, because if you do end up pregnant, you've got a big decision on your hands.

Personally, I think abortion is incredibly horrifying, and if they should do anything if someone is 16 and with child, they should give it up for adoption. Some people may say adoption is cruel, but which is worse? Killing the baby, or giving it to someone else? This was the only point I was trying to make, to clarify.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2004, 11:04:32 am

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775778 date=1101220528]
Because some people don't view them as real babies yet. They're still fetuses and "part of the mother".

[/quote]

Yes, I know some people feel this way. I don't agree. I believe the baby is a a real baby.

[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775778 date=1101220528]

Because even fetuses shouldn't be hurt if they can feel it, imo.

[/quote]

Yes, but does "lack of pain" make it right? I know we have gone round and round about this one, though, so I won't elaborate.


[quote author=Frankie81 link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775778 date=1101220528]

*g* That's true, but not very realistic in a world full of different religious and non-religious people.
I also disagree that it could be avoided if we all waited till marriage, or if some like me would never choose to have sex because they don't plan to get married *g*. Not every couple wants to have children, birth control is not 100% safe, condoms are not 100%, and if you have a "cure" for those sick rapists, please let everyone know. ;)


[/quote]

You are right, it is not realistic in this world we live in, but I believe it is the ideal. I didn't say I thought it would ever actually happen. :)

I didn't say that it could ALL be avoided without premarital sex but the majority of it could. (and yes, I know birth control is not always perfect, two of my children are only 13 months apart *grins*) I still don't agree with abortion though. If a married couple isn't ready for children, they can become ready for children (I really believe that most couples are ready and excited by the time the 9 months goes by) or they can wait to get married until they are ready to have children. I know that sounds harsh, but it would prevent abortion (which I see as murder of a baby).

And as far as the rapist goes, I admit that is a tough one. Many people who are against abortion, do believe it is okay in the case of rape. I personally, do not.*refrains from giving the personal example of a good friend* But if even pro-life people can't agree on that one, I know we never will on this forum so I don't even want to start a debate on this. :)

As far as someone, like you, who does not plan to marry, this is going to sound harsh and come across much stronger than I intend, but celebacy is not the end of the world. :) Many, many people go through life and have a perfectly happy life even NOT having sex. (Boy, I KNOW I am gonig to get flamed for this one!!! ::)) *tries to decide whether or not to delete this paragraph....takes a deep beath and decides not to...ducks*

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 23, 2004, 01:48:24 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775807 date=1101225872]
Yes, but does "lack of pain" make it right? I know we have gone round and round about this one, though, so I won't elaborate.[/quote]
I'm not sure if that makes it right, but sometimes the "right" thing isn't necessarily the "correct" thing to do. See, I also don't think putting more starving children into this world is right. I also believe smoking isn't right, but I'm far from saying it should be illegal. There are many things in this world I'm not happy with, but it's not only up to me to decide what's wrong and what's right, what should be legal and what shouldn't. Sometimes we have to acknowledge how other people feel about a certain situation and take a more distanced look at it (like "can a fetus be described as an individual or not" "can it feel pain or not" etc).
I've said many times now that I do not mean to encourage abortion, but after taking a critical look at the development of a fetus I find myself thinking it should be a mother's right to terminate a pregnancy, even though I wouldn't make a choice like that.
The pro-life crowd always refers to a fetus as a baby, I'm saying it's not, it's a fetus that will be a baby at some point. Why is the standard term "fetus" when we could've just called it a baby instead? It's not the same, there are different terms for every stage of development - fetus -> baby -> toddler -> ... you get the idea. A fetus isn't a baby just like an adolescent isn't a baby.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775807 date=1101225872]
I didn't say that it could ALL be avoided without premarital sex but the majority of it could.[/quote]
Sorry, I thought you did, I might've interpreted it wrong.


on 1101225872, Rose wrote:
If a married couple isn't ready for children, they can become ready for children (I really believe that most couples are ready and excited by the time the 9 months goes by) or they can wait to get married until they are ready to have children. I know that sounds harsh, but it would prevent abortion (which I see as murder of a baby).

There are many things you have to take into consideration though. An often repeated argument for not having kids is that some people want to have a decent job first to at least be able to give their families a nice home and all you need in modern life. This can take years until you actually hold the position you wanted. People often get married too young and divorces happen so frequently. Let's assume a married girl in college gets pregnant, decides to keep the baby and quits college. A couple of months later the young father decides having a family so early isn't really "his thing" and he leaves. So there she is, alone with a kid, no college degree and no decent job. If she's lucky she's got a family that supports her, otherwise she'll have to struggle a lot to feed the kid and give it a nice home. These kind of things happen quite often, this is why many young people decide to abort. In today's times you have to realize that the partner you're with might not be the same you'll have in five years, it's sad but true.
In most cases it's not that the girls don't want the child. It's the fact that they won't be able to give the child all it needs. If everything today's children needed was love, fine, but's that's not how it is. We live in a very material society and illegalizing abortion is not going to change that. An ideal world only comes with the ideal environment. I think we need to take other steps first before telling women what to do with their body.


on 1101225872, Rose wrote:
As far as someone, like you, who does not plan to marry, this is going to sound harsh and come across much stronger than I intend, but celebacy is not the end of the world. :) Many, many people go through life and have a perfectly happy life even NOT having sex. (Boy, I KNOW I am gonig to get flamed for this one!!! ::)) *tries to decide whether or not to delete this paragraph....takes a deep beath and decides not to...ducks*

*lol* that's okay, I'd rather flame you for the "raped women shouldn't abort either"-paragraph. *g*
Yes, I do not plan to marry, you didn't ask me though if I didn't want children as well ;)
If I was able to adopt, I'd do it, but unmarried couples are often not permitted to adopt unless they're rich. I don't really think I'll get around that sex-thing if I plan to have kids, do I?
Deciding whether a partner is the right one is hard, many girls that have sex for the first time think it is the right person they're with, others give in to peer pressure, maybe their boyfriend threatens to end the relationship or whatever. I'm not saying these are good reasons for having sex, but telling those kids to wait until marriage at an age they basically do anything to annoy you (at least many of them) is like telling a little kid not to press any buttons in an elevator. It's just soooo tempting.
So, rather than forbidding it there should be extensive education about this topic. I've mentioned earlier that the US has probably more pregnant teenagers than Europe. Why is that? Very few Europeans attend church, and even less would wait to have sex until they're married. Still, I believe our teen-pregnancies aren't as many as in the US (I might be wrong, but to judge from what I've seen, I'm not. I'll try to check some statistics though, if there are any).

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2004, 02:28:14 pm

I said I wasn't going to write much more, didn't I? :) And yet, here I am. :)
I can't take the time to respond to everything you said, Frankie, but I will respond to a couple of things.

As part of the "pro-life crowd," :) you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus. I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies." Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant. What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not. If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me. But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.

As far as the scenarios you mentioned (girl thinking someone is "the right one," girl being pressured by boyfriend, young husband leaving wife etc), you are right. In the real world, those things are gonig to happen. I know people make mistakes, bad decision and are abandoned by their boyfriend/husband. But, in spite of all that, I STILL stand by my pro-life convictions. I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible. What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old? Is it right to take the child's life at that point. I personally, don't see a difference.

One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem. If everyone "esteemed others more than themselves" no boyfriend would ever pressure a girlfriend into having sex. If everyone put relationships over material things (which is very Biblical) then having "things" would be less important than waiting for the "perfect" time to have a child (I am talking about unplanned pregnancies in a marriage). If everyone waited until marraige to have sex, then 90% of abortions would not even be an issue. If everyone believed "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," then young husbands would not selfishly decide they were not ready for a family but would stick with their wife and unborn child. I will shut up now but I could go on and on with more examples. Like I said, I know this will never happen, but I am only saying that if everyone followed the Bible's teachings, the world would be a much better place. Imagine how wonderful our world would be if everyone loved as Jesus loves.

I have so much more I want to say but I need to go work on some math with my son. I need to make sure I am not so busy advocating for other people's unborn children that I neglect the five living under my roof. :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Cristiel on November 23, 2004, 04:18:35 pm

Rose, I have a question for you: do you really feel that a girl who was raped and got pregnant should keep the baby?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2004, 04:31:06 pm

[quote author=Cristiel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775995 date=1101244715]
Rose, I have a question for you: do you really feel that a girl who was raped and got pregnant should keep the baby?
[/quote]

Oh Cristiel, I don't want to offend anyone, especially not you, who was the first person to reach out and befriend me when I joined the forum! Let me put it this way...if I (key word) was raped, I would not have an abortion. I would give the baby up for adoption. I just couldn't bring myself to have an abortion (which I see as the killing of a human being) no matter how I got pregnant. But I would NOT condemn or think badly of anyone else who had an abortion under those circumstances.


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Cristiel on November 23, 2004, 04:37:52 pm

Thanks Rose, that clarifies things. I have to admit that I always get upset when people talk about things without them knowing what they are exactly talking about. It's so easy to say that a girl who was raped should keep the baby because abortion is so wrong when you don't know what you're talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that most people don't know what it's like, but please don't condemn other people for the decisions they might make.

So, thanks for your answer Rose. You didn't offend me, I just wanted some clarification.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2004, 04:53:27 pm

[quote author=Cristiel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776015 date=1101245872]
Thanks Rose, that clarifies things. I have to admit that I always get upset when people talk about things without them knowing what they are exactly talking about. It's so easy to say that a girl who was raped should keep the baby because abortion is so wrong when you don't know what you're talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that most people don't know what it's like, but please don't condemn other people for the decisions they might make.

So, thanks for your answer Rose. You didn't offend me, I just wanted some clarification.
[/quote]

Point taken, Cristiel. Thanks for asking me to clarify instead of just getting mad at me. :) I will try to explain more clearly in the future.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: The Used on November 23, 2004, 05:45:10 pm

[color=Green] For me, personally, I think it's worse for a baby to be put up for adoption and let there whole lives be one big problem. I had a kid in my class that was up for adoption (he'd been to tons and tons of families, but none ever liked him, and they never got along) in my science class this year, he was suicidle, he did none of his work, he hated everything and everyone. Why put a human through years of stress and pain, when you can save them from it?

But then you ya'know, there's those kids that end up in good homes...but that's not the majority...I just wouldent want to hurt someone like that, I wouldent be able to live with myself. [/color]

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Miriel on November 23, 2004, 05:54:21 pm

I don't think anybody here is 'pro-abortion' when it comes to cases such as: Not having safe sex and aborting the 'accidents' or any other careless reasons. When my theology teacher wanted to talk to us about abortion he showed us a video first, in wich all the women who got an abortion because they where pregnant by their boss and did not want to get fired or just because they get sloppy with protection and think kids are a nuisance etc etc. We were all very pissed at him. Obviously we dissaprove of such things, DUH! His goal by showing this video, however, was giving a very one-sided view on the matter to try and influence our opinion. Did he think we're stupid?

Abortion is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly. I don't think there are many people who disagree with that. The question is: Is it ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion?

Personally, I am not very inclined to suggest abortion as a solution to any kind of problem. But be honest: Do you know what it feels like to be the pregnant raped girl? Can you solemnly swear that you will NEVER EVER think that abortion was justifiable? Do you honestly think that you have the right to judge and make the decision for others?

Some other remarks:
The fundamentalist Christians are (as to be expected) the most extreme and convinced in their opinion. I am a Christian too and well aware of what the Bible says. In this thread as well as in others I stumble across things that bother me.

First of all: In a intelligent discours about abortion, terms as 'killing babies' allready implies an opinion and is in that very judgemental of others with a different opinion (it implies they are murderers or defend or justify murder with their opinion). That is ok if you want to say how YOU feel about abortion, but not in the overall discussion.
'If you're proabortion, why do you think is is ok to kill babies?'

uhm... what do you think someone will answer?

Could people perhaps try to see their opinion as their OPINION and see it separate from the 'frame' of the discussion? Though it might be the right conviction, realise that many people don't share that conviction. if that happens you can refrase your question or arguments without having a different opion but also without allready judgeing others.

Also: the difference people se between killing a four-year-old and having an abortion is that not everyone thinks of a fetus as a human life yet. If you start out with the given: a fetus is a child and a live, there is no difference. If You start out with the given: a fetus isn't a human being yet, the first case is murder, the second case not. That makes it easy? That makes it allways right? no. But if this is your conviction that means it isn't murder


On the side: I surely hope people won't live their life literally by the Bibles teachings. It would imply a lot of very womenunfriendly laws and traditions. Of course these Bibletexts are not what you had in mind when you talk about living by the Bibles teachings, but that's my point. Everybody has a different defenition of 'living by the Bibles teachings' As someone who sees the Bible as a cultural, historical document that contains the word of God, but in symbolism and metaphors, I keep finding it hard to determine what more orthodox people take literally and what not. Homosexuality is a sin, but long hair doesn't mean you're a wh*re anymore. I cannot see any logic in it. I suspect people take literally what suits them and not literally what doesn't suit them. In my case I would speak of an ideal world or a world without evil, paradise even, there abortion and rape would not exist.


About abortion in the case of serious illness and deformity: This is extremely difficult. If you know that your child will be so ill or in such a condition that it's only perspective is to suffer horribly and then die, I would seriously consider my options. However: where do you draw the line? Is it justified to abort a pregnancy because the child will have down-syndrome or another mental handicap or a physical one?

My older sister has down-syndrome and was also born with a heartcondition. I know all the pro's and cons on this matter, it doesn't make it any easier.

If I was pregnant and knew the child would have downsyndrome I would have it. Absolutely, no question. My sister had a serious heartcondition. Noone expected her to live very long. For nine long years she has suffered horribly. For my parents it was almost unbearable to see her suffer like this in the knowledge she would die in the end. My mother told me that at some points my parents asked theirselves what they were putting her through and if they could justify keeping her alive. Without the extensive medical care, she would have died almost immediately. Was it right that they kept her alive? At the age of nine, my sister underwent a very risky surgery. The chance she would survive was 20 percent. My parents decided on the surgery anyway, for without the surgery she would die as well. My sister was one of the first to survive the operation and the aftermath. She is now a happy 25-year-old with down-syndrome and I honestly believe she is a great contribution to this world.

Do I now know what I would do when I knew my child would probably suffer and die? No. Absolutely not. I do however think that it is not my right to judge others and their desicion in matters as these.

So to sum things up: I am not pro-abortion, but pro-choice.

(ps:Also think advocating no pre-marital sex is not going to get the teenage pregnancyrates any lower. More tuition on safe sex would. )
(pps: I don't think there is anything wrong with pre-marital sex either)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: blueangel21 on November 23, 2004, 09:46:43 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775912 date=1101238094]
I said I wasn't going to write much more, didn't I? :) And yet, here I am. :)
I can't take the time to respond to everything you said, Frankie, but I will respond to a couple of things.

As part of the "pro-life crowd," :) you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus. I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies." Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant. What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not. If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me. But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.

As far as the scenarios you mentioned (girl thinking someone is "the right one," girl being pressured by boyfriend, young husband leaving wife etc), you are right. In the real world, those things are gonig to happen. I know people make mistakes, bad decision and are abandoned by their boyfriend/husband. But, in spite of all that, I STILL stand by my pro-life convictions. I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible. What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old? Is it right to take the child's life at that point. I personally, don't see a difference.

One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem. If everyone "esteemed others more than themselves" no boyfriend would ever pressure a girlfriend into having sex. If everyone put relationships over material things (which is very Biblical) then having "things" would be less important than waiting for the "perfect" time to have a child (I am talking about unplanned pregnancies in a marriage). If everyone waited until marraige to have sex, then 90% of abortions would not even be an issue. If everyone believed "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," then young husbands would not selfishly decide they were not ready for a family but would stick with their wife and unborn child. I will shut up now but I could go on and on with more examples. Like I said, I know this will never happen, but I am only saying that if everyone followed the Bible's teachings, the world would be a much better place. Imagine how wonderful our world would be if everyone loved as Jesus loves.

I have so much more I want to say but I need to go work on some math with my son. I need to make sure I am not so busy advocating for other people's unborn children that I neglect the five living under my roof. :)
[/quote]

I agree with Rose's position. She has already explained these matters from a Christian perspective far better than I possibly can.


Quote:
Abortion is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly. I don't think there are many people who disagree with that. The question is: Is it ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion?


Yes, that's very true, Miriel... abortion IS a very serious matter... and my answer would have to be yes... it is ALWAYS morally wrong to have an abortion though like what Rose has said before, I do not and will not judge those who have had or choose to have an abortion.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2004, 10:51:01 pm

Hi Blue Angel! It was so nice to come here and read your post. You are a blessing in my life. ;)

Meriel, I read your post three or four hours ago but had other pressing matters to attend to so I could not respond then. I did make one small post, which I regretted and later deleted.

I have to admit, Meriel, that I really, really struggled as to whether or not to respond to your post. When I "debated" Frankie, Willikins, Fiona and others on this thread it felt like a "friendly debate." I felt like, for the most part, everyone stuck to the issue and didn't get personal. When I would finish reading their posts, I would think something like, "Hmmm, very interesting points. What do I believe about these things? and then I would respond.

For some reason, after I read your post, I felt like I had been personally attacked. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive, and if so, I am sorry. I really don't want to stick in a debate where things get "ugly." Not because I am afraid to stand up for what I belive, I think I have proven otherwise, but because I am afraid I will say something I reget later.

I really can't put my finger on exactly why I felt personally attacked...so maybe I am over reacting. ::)

But...I decided I will continue in the debate, at least for awhile.

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]


Personally, I am not very inclined to suggest abortion as a solution to any kind of problem. But be honest: Do you know what it feels like to be the pregnant raped girl? Can you solemnly swear that you will NEVER EVER think that abortion was justifiable? Do you honestly think that you have the right to judge and make the decision for others?

[/quote]

Do I have a right to judge others? No. (And I think if you read my posts carefully, you will see that I don't.) Do I have a right to make a decision for others? No. Do I have the right to believe abortion is murder? Yes

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]


Some other remarks:
The fundamentalist Christians are (as to be expected) the most extreme and convinced in their opinion. I am a Christian too and well aware of what the Bible says. In this thread as well as in others I stumble across things that bother me.

[/quote]

I feel like "bashing" conservative Christians (or fundamentalist, if you prefer the word) is the favorite passtime of a lot of people these days (not all, of course). I wonder one thing though, why is it okay to be "extreme" in other areas, such as an extreme environmentalist or an extreme women's rights person, or an extreme pro-choice person but it is not okay to be extreme when it comes to one's beliefs about God and the Bible? Conservative Christians are not hurting anyone or forcing anything on anyone. (Yes, we might push for things to go our way politically, but doesn't everyone who has a strong belief about something?) Do we not have as much "right" to our belief and opinion as anyone else?



[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]

Could people perhaps try to see their opinion as their OPINION and see it separate from the 'frame' of the discussion? Though it might be the right conviction, realise that many people don't share that conviction. if that happens you can refrase your question or arguments without having a different opion but also without allready judgeing others.

Also: the difference people se between killing a four-year-old and having an abortion is that not everyone thinks of a fetus as a human life yet. If you start out with the given: a fetus is a child and a live, there is no difference. If You start out with the given: a fetus isn't a human being yet, the first case is murder, the second case not. That makes it easy? That makes it allways right? no. But if this is your conviction that means it isn't murder


[/quote]

To me, killing an unborn child (baby, fetus, what ever word you prefer) is murder. I make no apology for this belief. Do I judge and condemn women that have abortions? No! I have already said that on more than one occasion. Do I sympathize greatly with what they are going through to have come to such a decision? Yes. I have friends and loved ones who have had abortions. I don't think less of them. I don't hate them. I love many of them. But, I feel great sadness over the death of their baby.

But, just as those of you who are pro-choice (if you prefer I use this term over pro-abortion, I would be glad to) refer to the baby as a "parasite" and a fetus and say it isn't living, I believe just as strongly that the baby is a human life and is living. (if you want to use the word "fetus" that is fine, I use the word "baby"...we both know to what we are refering).

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]

On the side: I surely hope people won't live their life literally by the Bibles teachings. It would imply a lot of very womenunfriendly laws and traditions. Of course these Bibletexts are not what you had in mind when you talk about living by the Bibles teachings, but that's my point. Everybody has a different defenition of 'living by the Bibles teachings' As someone who sees the Bible as a cultural, historical document that contains the word of God, but in symbolism and metaphors, I keep finding it hard to determine what more orthodox people take literally and what not. Homosexuality is a sin, but long hair doesn't mean you're a wh*re anymore. I cannot see any logic in it. I suspect people take literally what suits them and not literally what doesn't suit them. In my case I would speak of an ideal world or a world without evil, paradise even, there abortion and rape would not exist.


[/quote]

I am not going to respond to this because it would lead the debate off the topic of abortion and on to the topic of Biblical interpretation. If anyone ones my thoughts on this (and I know people aren't lining up to get my thoughts and opinions :)), please PM me.

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]

My older sister has down-syndrome and was also born with a heartcondition. I know all the pro's and cons on this matter, it doesn't make it any easier.

If I was pregnant and knew the child would have downsyndrome I would have it. Absolutely, no question. My sister had a serious heartcondition. Noone expected her to live very long. For nine long years she has suffered horribly. For my parents it was almost unbearable to see her suffer like this in the knowledge she would die in the end. My mother told me that at some points my parents asked theirselves what they were putting her through and if they could justify keeping her alive. Without the extensive medical care, she would have died almost immediately. Was it right that they kept her alive? At the age of nine, my sister underwent a very risky surgery. The chance she would survive was 20 percent. My parents decided on the surgery anyway, for without the surgery she would die as well. My sister was one of the first to survive the operation and the aftermath. She is now a happy 25-year-old with down-syndrome and I honestly believe she is a great contribution to this world.

[/quote]

This was such a sweet, touching, beautiful story about your older sister. Thank you for sharing such a personal thing with us. I am sure she is a blessing in the lives of you and your family.

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg776092 date=1101250461]
(ps:Also think advocating no pre-marital sex is not going to get the teenage pregnancyrates any lower. More tuition on safe sex would. )
(pps: I don't think there is anything wrong with pre-marital sex either)
[/quote]

I do not agree that more classes on safe sex would lower teenage pregnancies. In the last 20 years there have been more classes on safe-sex AND more teenage pregnancies. The only sure way to prevent pregnancies is to not have sex. Yes, I know this is unrealistic in today's world but it CAN be done. I know many, many teenagers and young adults who are remaining virgins. Yes, it is hard, but not impossible. But, I am realistic enough to know that every teenager and unmarried adult is going to abstain from sex. However, ideally, absentance, not safe sex-classes, are the answer.


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 23, 2004, 11:53:03 pm

Hmm.

I feel like we're kind of going around in circles, so I'm just going to address the bit about celibacy.

Yes, celibacy is possible. But with the way society works now, especialy in America, it just isn't something that's very likely, which I know most of you have already conceded to be true (that it's not very likely to change, I mean). I would like to say something as someone who waited until they were truly "ready" to have sex: I don't regret it. My first sexual experience was painful. I am glad that I have gotten it over and done with. It was not a good experience because it involved my body adjusting: whether or not I share that experience with someone I will love forever or someone I love right then, it's still a painful experience. For me, the sex is more special once you've gotten some experience. I mean, yes, it is special to save yourself for that person, but with the high divorce rates in the US (where I live), that doesn't really mean much, to save yourself for your husband or wife, because it could all be over in a year or three. This is just opening a whole different subject and yes, it could be "solved" if we all followed the bible, but that would be taking away the freedoms we have. I don't think forcing marriage onto a couple is the right thing to do in response to them wanting to have sex with each other.

Also, just as my own personal what have you: sex makes people happy. It's been proven and as a person who has had sex, I can tell you that that has been my experience every time. Celibacy might be possible, but it's also pretty depressing. People here are usually sad if they have to go for ___ weeks/months/years without sex. I would hate for someone to tell me "if you're not getting married, it's no more sex for you!" Because marriage is a commitment and sometimes you just want to be able to explore without the whole idea of whether what you're about to do (not just sex, but any intimacy, from talking to cuddling or whatever) is going to lead to a ring on your finger. That's way too much pressure in my opinion.

I like sex. I try to be safe. It makes me happy so I don't think it's all bad. Not EVERYONE gets pregnant.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Miriel on November 24, 2004, 12:36:55 pm

I will write quick message now. I'm really very busy at the moment, but there are some things I would like to say before days have gone by. This post is maily for Rose but also for everyone here.

My post was not at all meant as a personal attack on Rose or anyone here. In fact, I am not at all the one to make posts that can cause people to be upset or leave the suggestion that I am not debating but personally attacking.

I can understand that you felt attacked though, Rose. I don't dislike you and I surely respect your believes. What bothered me is not at all what peoples opinions are, but the way of debating. It is something that has been bothering me for a very long time. I feel that there is no separation of opinion and and discussion. I find it difficult to express what I mean in another language, so I hope you understand what I mean a bit...

My post was pretty sharp and I am not surprised that people aren't too happy with what I said. Maybe if I say now what I didn't want to actually say before, it becomes clear why I was so sharp. Though know none of you means to insult insult anyone, I sometimes feel the way you voice your opinions is somewhat condescending. I no it is not meant that way, but some thing come across as such. I will adress all this later and more elaborate, as I really don't have the time at the moment, but I wanted to let people know I'm not trying to attack people or on a mission to 'diss' christians.

Back later,

Mír

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 24, 2004, 02:00:17 pm

[quote author=Míriel link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=90#msg776406 date=1101317815]
I will write quick message now. I'm really very busy at the moment, but there are some things I would like to say before days have gone by. This post is maily for Rose but also for everyone here.

My post was not at all meant as a personal attack on Rose or anyone here. In fact, I am not at all the one to make posts that can cause people to be upset or leave the suggestion that I am not debating but personally attacking.

I can understand that you felt attacked though, Rose. I don't dislike you and I surely respect your believes. What bothered me is not at all what peoples opinions are, but the way of debating. It is something that has been bothering me for a very long time. I feel that there is no separation of opinion and and discussion. I find it difficult to express what I mean in another language, so I hope you understand what I mean a bit...

My post was pretty sharp and I am not surprised that people aren't too happy with what I said. Maybe if I say now what I didn't want to actually say before, it becomes clear why I was so sharp. Though know none of you means to insult insult anyone, I sometimes feel the way you voice your opinions is somewhat condescending. I no it is not meant that way, but some thing come across as such. I will adress all this later and more elaborate, as I really don't have the time at the moment, but I wanted to let people know I'm not trying to attack people or on a mission to 'diss' christians.

Back later,

Mír
[/quote]

Like Mir, I only have a few minutes. I want to address your post on celebacy, Willinkins, and to your post, Rai, and a couple of other things (unfortunately, I probabably won't have time to get to them until Friday, and by then, wo knows where this discussion will have gone. :)

However, I do want to post a resonse to Miriel's post. I am very sorry if I have ever appeared condesending. In no way do I feel "superior" to any of you (actually, I feel very inadequate, compared to many of you). I sincerely apologize if I have come across in a condesending or rude manner.

As I reread your first post, I realized that I did over react and was overly sensitive. You didn't come across THAT sharp. :) You came across very strong but not mean. :) I apologize for "getting my feelings hurt" so easily. ::) My only excuse is that I was very tired and upset about something else yesterday, ::)but I know that is no excuse, since our emotions should not control how we treat others. I am also rather sensitive when conservative Christians are criticised for reason I mentioned in my post, but I know that is not really an excuse either.

I do believe, though, that it is impossible to seperate our opinion from a discussion. We all arrive at our beliefs based on our opinions or worldview. Those of you who are pro-choice debate from the point of few that a "fetus" is not a life. Those of us who are pro-life, debate from the point of view that a "baby" is a life. Those are "opinions" and really the whole base of the debate. I just don't see how we can avoid expressing our opinion in a debate. I am sorry if I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Well, like I said, my time is short. Hope all of you have a good day. "Talk" to you later.


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on November 24, 2004, 02:15:43 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775912 date=1101238094]
As part of the "pro-life crowd," :) you are absolutely right, we do refer to preborn children as a baby instead of a fetus. I don't say "I have miscarried seven fetuses (feti?---what is the plural?)" but "I have miscarried seven babies." Having said that, though, I really don't this as relevant. What we choose to call a fetus/baby does not determine whether or not it is a life or not. If people want to call a baby, a fetus, that is fine with me. But what ever the name, it is still a life starting at conception.[/quote]
It's up to you what you call your child/baby/fetus. I'm sure you will still call your children your babies once they're adults, right? I know my mother does and I'm hardly a baby anymore. We might call it a baby (it sounds more loving, anyway), but it's still at a different developmental stage than a baby.

I have another question though. What's a life? Isn't it necessary to be able to breathe etc. to have a life?
Does life really start at conception? Is that a fact? Taking somebody's life is considered murder. Abortion isn't. This is what people have discussed in lengths, what is life really, and when does it start? If they had come to the conclusion that it starts at conception I don't think there would be so many countries that allow abortions.
If you choose to reply to this, please try to take a critical (or biological) look at this. Try to leave out your personal experience and your faith in the Bible, as hard as it may seem.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775912 date=1101238094]
I don't think it is right to abort a "fetus" just because circumstances are less than ideal or even terrible. What if a father abandons the Mom when the child is four years old? Is it right to take the child's life at that point. I personally, don't see a difference.[/quote]
Because of that "what if" many girls decide to abort when they're still young and cannot afford to have a child on their own yet.
No it's not right to kill a four-year-old. That's murder of a child who is already born, already able to feel, hear, see, well ... live.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=75#msg775912 date=1101238094]
One more thing, I know this would NEVER happen in the real world, but if everyone lived by the Bible's teachings, none of this would ever be a problem.[/quote]
I will not even go there *smiles*
I just wanna say that this is a world of many religions and faiths, instead of trying to move backwards to biblical times and pushing our personal faith on others we should try to live and let live even if we don't agree with it.


on 1101268261, Rose wrote:
I feel like "bashing" conservative Christians (or fundamentalist, if you prefer the word) is the favorite passtime of a lot of people these days (not all, of course). I wonder one thing though, why is it okay to be "extreme" in other areas, such as an extreme environmentalist or an extreme women's rights person, or an extreme pro-choice person but it is not okay to be extreme when it comes to one's beliefs about God and the Bible? Conservative Christians are not hurting anyone or forcing anything on anyone.

I'm sure environmentalists, feminists, and abortion clinics have to take some bashing as well. Wasn't there an abortion doctor who was murdered? Anyway, extreme environmentalists' work is based on facts. It would be different if they just believed the environment was harmed. Feminists' work is also based on facts, they don't just believe women are suppressed, they can show you statistics to prove it. But saying they're not bashed as well, is wrong, imo. Maybe you just feel that way, because you are a Christian.
The environment is affecting everyone on this planet no matter what they believe in. You cannot say the same about religion and prove it. What if all Christians are wrong and the Buddhists are right? :P


on 1101268261, Rose wrote:
(Yes, we might push for things to go our way politically, but doesn't everyone who has a strong belief about something?) Do we not have as much "right" to our belief and opinion as anyone else?

This is a very important issue you're raising. You're letting religion influence politics. This is what bothers me most and what is causing all the bashing. I couldn't care less whether people believed they may not eat fish because it's a sin or something, as long as they will let others eat fish.
I personally prefer to live in an environment where I can make decisions that are not based on other people's beliefs. I don't like to let religion dictate my life in certain ways. Just because some BELIEVE it is the right thing to do, doesn't mean others feel the same way about it.
I think on important topics like abortion we should let experts decide whether a fetus is an individual, whether it can be considered murder to abort something that doesn't even live yet, or whether life really starts at conception.
For the well-being of a whole society we will have to put science over belief, you can still make your own choices, though, however you please.

[quote author=Rose link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=90#msg776183 date=1101268261]
I do not agree that more classes on safe sex would lower teenage pregnancies. In the last 20 years there have been more classes on safe-sex AND more teenage pregnancies. The only sure way to prevent pregnancies is to not have sex. Yes, I know this is unrealistic in today's world but it CAN be done. I know many, many teenagers and young adults who are remaining virgins.[/quote]
Okay, I have tried to find some statistics:

Rates of Teenage Childbearing in the U.S. Are the Highest in the Developed World
The U.S. teenage birth rate is the highest in the developed world: twice as high as England's, three times as high as Australia's, four times as high as Germany's, six times as high as France's, eight times as high as the Netherlands', and 15 times as high as Japan's (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998; Berne & Huberman, 1999).

Reasons for the lower rates of teenage childbearing in these countries include mandatory, medically accurate sexuality education programs that provide comprehensive information and encourage teens to make responsible choices easy access to contraception and other forms of reproductive health care, including abortion social acceptance of adolescent sexual expression as normal and healthy straightforward public health media campaigns government support for the right of teens to accurate information and confidential services (Berne & Huberman, 1999)

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/TEEN-PREGNANCY/teenpreg_fact.html
This is from the late 90's, hope things have changed for the better.
I've raised this earlier but it's been ignored. My real point is that in Europe very few people go to church, even less would wait with sex until they're married. So, over here we do have lots of sexually active teenagers, but still our pregnancy rates are much lower. Why?

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Rose on November 24, 2004, 03:29:24 pm

Just wanted to let you all know that iIam bowing out of this discussion. It has been interesting and it has been fun (for the most part) but, after thinking about it awhile, I have decided not to continue. I just wanted to let you know that I won't be back so you won't be left wondering where I am (I am sure you will "see" me on other threads.

The reasons I am leaving are 1) This discussion could go on for a long, long, long time. We have all stated our points and none of us are going to change our minds. 2) I have been "neglecting" my children because of the time I am spending on this particular thread. They need me far more than any of you need my input. :) This is the most important reason I am leaving this debate. 3) As a homeschooling mother of five, I work very hard and I need/want my "down" time to be more relaxing. I don't mind an occasional debate but I don't want it to take up the bulk of my online time.

Willikins, Meriel and Frankie, all of you have raised some very interesting points which I would just love to respond to :D but for the reasons I have mentioned above, I will no longer be visiting this thread.

Hope the rest of you have a great time as you continue this interesting discussion. :D Also hope to see all of you on other threads.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Laura on November 24, 2004, 03:29:55 pm

I haven't read this thread at all but just thought i'd give my opinion. I think taking the 'morning after pill' is fine. I see no problem with it, at all.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 24, 2004, 11:45:10 pm

I don't think we're discussing the morning after pill. I'm pretty sure it was a regular abortion pill that could be taken at a later date.

I don't have much to add this time, though I will say that Rose and some of the other people on the anti-choice side were not telling others what to do, only expressing what they feel. Some people were saying abortion should be illegal and wanted to force it on others, in which case I think that that is wrong. Because if you're okay with abortion to some degree, then you are not forcing anyone into anything; if you are against abortion on all levels, then you are taking away people's choice as to what to do with their body, even if you think it's a life it is still developing in the woman's body. Perhaps you don't realise that by forcing your opinion, you really are telling others what they can and cannot do; again, not all of you said that, but some of you did, and I really can't agree with that. I'm not forcing you to get an abortion; I'm not saying that I am even going to get one; but where I live, it IS my choice and I plan to keep that option open.

And thanks for bringing up that bit about Europe. They also have national health care in some places - maybe that has something to do with it? Being able to afford birth control? I don't know, but you gotta admire them for not having as many teenage pregnancies. Or at least, I admire them for that.

Woohah.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Laura on November 25, 2004, 03:32:37 pm

Okay i just thought maybe it was the morning after pill you meant. I've never heard of this abortion pill before. Hm.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on November 26, 2004, 01:45:08 am

I hadn't heard of it either, LJ. I think it's still being developed? I'm not sure; got too hung up in the abortion debate. ::)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: NiX on November 26, 2004, 02:39:15 am

And they all lived happily ever after...
*
*
*
*
*
THE END
;D

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Grawsywoll on November 26, 2004, 10:32:13 am

I think abortion is a correct action and support it fully. It's one of the few rights against men that women have.... Why destroy it when we fought so long and hard for it? ???

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Raiwen on November 26, 2004, 01:13:08 pm

Surely you shouldn't have rights "against" men. That's just as bad as men having rights against women. There's a type of feminism going for female superiority over men which I think is not right. Also I find abortion takes away the rights of the father who are not given a say in the birth of their child, which is completely unfair.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: The Used on November 27, 2004, 01:36:46 pm

[quote author=Rai link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=90#msg777412 date=1101492788]
Surely you shouldn't have rights "against" men. That's just as bad as men having rights against women. There's a type of feminism going for female superiority over men which I think is not right. Also I find abortion takes away the rights of the father who are not given a say in the birth of their child, which is completely unfair.
[/quote]Thats true, but it's not the guy that has to go through all the pain of delivering the baby, and anyways, when a women is considering abortion, or some "pill" it usualy means the guys already out the door. Even if they have the baby, the guys usualy gone. (I'm talking about younger people, like in there teenage years) The guy usualy gets scared and runs off. Sometimes they stay to support the female and the baby for all the costs, but not all the time.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: I_LOVE_MY_BOYZ on April 17, 2005, 03:34:59 pm

ok, i know this thread has been long dead, but i posted this on a different thread where it really didn't belong. I knew there had been an abortion thread in the past, and i finally found it! I just wanted to post some stuff i saw about it. So many people change their opinions on meat consumption after they see videos of the slaughters, i thought perhaps this would do the same thing.

This one is simply the proceedures.
http://www.pregnancycenters.org/abortion.html

This site is graphic, so only go if you can stand it...
http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm


Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 03:41:16 pm

That stuff makes me literally cringe. How could anybody be so cruel? I don't understand people. They think that animal cruelty is bad and they're for abortion? My goodness.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: I_LOVE_MY_BOYZ on April 17, 2005, 03:46:37 pm

well, animal cruelty is bad... but, in my opinion, abortion is far worse... :-\

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 03:50:43 pm

That's what I think, too. It just seems so cruel to me . . . I consider abortion murder. That's just me, though.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Frankie81 on April 17, 2005, 03:51:39 pm

What's the abortion law like in the US? Can you just have an abortion at anytime during the pregnancy even if the baby is due in 3 weeks?

Those babies in the second link look like they're quite far developed. I personally oppose any abortion that's done after the 12th week.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 03:59:38 pm

I'm not sure about the laws here, really, and I guess that's because I don't really care. Personally, I'm against it no matter how far along the pregnancy is. Killing an unborn baby, to me, is sicker than killing a full grown man. I mean, I don't condone either of them by any means, but I just don't see how anyone could murder something that never even got the chance to live.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on April 17, 2005, 08:10:25 pm

[quote]Dilation and Extraction (D&X): from 20 weeks after LMP to full-term
Also known as Partial-birth Abortion, this procedure takes three days. During the first two days, the cervix is dilated and medication is given for cramping. On the third day, the woman receives medication to start labor. After labor begins, the abortion doctor uses ultrasound to locate the baby's legs. Grasping a leg with forceps, the doctor delivers the baby up to the baby's head. Next, scissors are inserted into the base of the skull to create an opening. A suction catheter is placed into the opening to remove the skull contents. The skull collapses and the baby is removed.[/quote]

This one is the sickest of them all...I can't imagine that...
http://www.holylamb.com/info.htm
that's a picture of how it's done...

wow those photo's of dead babies were quite disturbing...I also read over all the risks of abortion, and they are...very scary...



Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 08:41:31 pm

Yes, they are. They are really, really freaky.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ShannyBanany on April 17, 2005, 08:45:03 pm

The sites are horrible. I read the first site Jess posted and it disturbed me. :-\ I decided to not look at the second site or the pictures.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 08:47:52 pm


Quote:
I decided to not look at the second site or the pictures.

I looked at one or two of the pictures and then I had to quit. How could someone support that for any reason whatsoever? I just don't understand. It's so cruel.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: uNblessed Citrus on April 17, 2005, 08:50:56 pm

Partial Birth abortion is illegal; Bush passed that law.

I don't see how anyone can have an abortion, because you have to be responsible. Have all of the unprotected sex you want, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and you should be able to handle it. However, if they want to do it they can. Someone I know had an abortion and she regrets it.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: funky_monkey on April 17, 2005, 08:51:09 pm

Wow...I didn't really know how they actually did an abortion. :-\ I read that the morning after pill isn't really an abortion pill, but some may say it is. It's really anyones opinion.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ShannyBanany on April 17, 2005, 08:57:05 pm

[quote author=The Shortest Name Ever. link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=105#msg860931 date=1113785456]
However, if they want to do it they can. Someone I know had an abortion and she regrets it.
[/quote]

Everyone has their own opinion and since I've never had an abortion I can't say from experience but I think I would regret it to. I would have a lot of guilt because I feel guilty quite easy.

I'm against abortion. I think it does differ if you have been raped and are pregnant but if you are being sexually active you have to know that you could possibly pregnant and killing someone who never had a chance to live, because you made a mistake, is wrong.

*AGAIN, THAT IS ONLY MY OPINION.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 08:57:32 pm

Well . . . a woman that goes to my church works in a pharmacy, and they started selling Morning After pills. She refused to sell them because she read about what they did. I think she just gets another woman to sell them to customers who ask for them, but she told me and my parents that it really did abort a baby.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: ElijahFan101 on April 17, 2005, 09:01:24 pm

[quote author=Pink Nightmare link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=105#msg860932 date=1113785469]
Wow...I didn't really know how they actually did an abortion. :-\ I read that the morning after pill isn't really an abortion pill, but some may say it is. It's really anyones opinion.
[/quote]

the morning after pill and the abortion pill are two different things:

Morning After Pill (MAP): within 72 hours of sexual intercourse
Also known as “Emergency Contraception,” this procedure consists of a pregnancy test and two doses of pills. The woman first must take a pregnancy test and receive a negative test result before taking the pills. If a negative test result occurs from the pregnancy test, then the woman is instructed to take the first dose of the MAP. Note: a negative result indicates that the woman is probably not pregnant from intercourse during her previous monthly cycle, but it will not show whether or not she just became pregnant (from intercourse the “night before”). She is instructed to take this first dose as soon as possible, but not more than 72 hours after intercourse. The woman takes a second dose 12 hours after the first dose. If conception already occurred within the 72 hour time frame (that is the “night before”), the life is expelled. This is an early abortion.

[color=red]RU486, Mifepristone: within 4 to 7 weeks after LMP
Also known as the Abortion Pill, this medical abortion is used for women who are within 28 to 49 days after their last menstrual period. This procedure usually requires three office visits. The RU 486 or mifepristone pills are given to the woman who returns two days later for a second medication called misoprostol. The combination of these medications causes the uterus to expel the fetus.
[/color]

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: funky_monkey on April 17, 2005, 09:03:01 pm

[quote author=ShannyBanany link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=105#msg860938 date=1113785825]
I'm against abortion. I think it does differ if you have been raped and are pregnant but if you are being sexually active you have to know that you could possibly pregnant and killing someone who never had a chance to live, because you made a mistake, is wrong.

[/quote]
I agree with you, if you got pregnant my rape then you didn't really have a choice did you? But if you just did it and was careless then there is no point.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Kari_Grace on April 17, 2005, 09:12:53 pm


Quote:
I agree with you, if you got pregnant my rape then you didn't really have a choice did you?

Well, no, you didn't have a choice. However, an abortion is killing a life . . . or, if you want to say the baby isn't alive at certain points, keeping a life from happening. It may not be the mother's fault that she was raped or something and got pregnant, but it isn't the baby's fault, either. It doesn't deserve to be destroyed.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: The Used on April 17, 2005, 10:30:34 pm

[color=Green]If I got raped, I wouldn't want to have the rapist baby.
I wouldn't want to look at it, and see the rapists face.
That's just me, and I know it wouldn't be an easy thing to do,
but I think I would have an abortion if that happend to me.

As for the whole unpertected sex thing, I don't know what I would do...that's exactly why I think women should have options, and rights to do what they feel is right for them, and the baby. If your poor, still in school, and don't have the means to raise a happy, healthy baby, then why would you? Because you have compassion...but not everyone is the same...

And I think every women on this planet should have the right to do what they feel is right. Putting a law on every female is excluding so many situations that could be out of the womens hands, like rape. Putting a baby in a garbage can in an alley for it to die is worse than abortion. [/color]

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: eLijAhZpuMpKiNlOvE on April 18, 2005, 07:14:09 am

I am not against abortion. Obviously, I would prefer to see the situation be prevented, but that it not always a possibility. If a child is conceived as a product of rape, I don't feel it should be kept if that is not the wish of the mother. It truely depends on the individual. Recently, I read a story of a woman who was raped at a young age and kept the baby. That was her decision.

Some women regret having an abortion, and for others, it is the best thing they could have done. Some women may have emotional problems after their abortion, and others may have them if they decide to keep their child. Again, it depends on the individual.

For some, the possibility of a child is just not an option. No matter how safe they may have been, accidents do happen.

Abortion is only safe if the "baby" is aborted within a certain amount of weeks/months anyway. When it is aborted, it is not a developed human, and has not yet gained a nervous system or anything. It's not a human. It has the potential to be human, as do the eggs that women menstruate every month.

I don't think I'm going to come back into this thread after this, as I've stated my opinions on the matter and I am leaving it at that. :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Fire_Wolf_13 on April 19, 2005, 02:20:19 pm

I Think if u need to get an abortion because some ppl get raped and end up pregnant, and if you are just not ready to have a baby then i say, get an abortion if u want to.
its ur own business. SO get one if u really want one <plain ansd simple :)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: PixieChick_18 on April 19, 2005, 10:14:15 pm

I really don't understand the "if you get raped it's okay to have an abortion" logic. The baby is not just the rapists' baby; it is also YOUR baby. The baby did not choose his or her parents'; God did. I don't think it is fair at all to kill your child because someone made you have one. Two wrongs don't make a right. I know it is a painful experience, but having the baby will not hurt you more. If you are not ready, you can always put it up for adoption. Babies especially are always in want by parents who can't conceive. A few couples I know, struggled to get a baby from the adoption agencies; because so many other couples want to adopt a newborn too. And the prospective parents meet up with the mother so she knows that the baby is going to a good home. Abusive parents are hardly the ones who would go to all the trouble of trying to adopt a child.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: Merry Holbytlan on April 20, 2005, 05:44:28 am

[quote author=twoleafclover link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=0#msg773602 date=1100754812]
i think there's a clear solution to abortions...if your not ready to have a child, then don't have sex.

it's as simple as that.
[/quote]

Unfortunatly its never simple as that. When you think about it, there are aspect of things to look at such as peer pressure or lack of information/knowlege.

When we're talking about abortion, its a complex, complex issues. There are many, many diffrent point of views. Techinally, no one is exactly right, but they arent exactly wrong either. Its based on invindual's opinions.

Frankly, what I think. There ought to be more people out there who are willing to sit down with their kids or their friends and talk about safe sex or talk about the worst case secerio such as getting raped, pregant, HIV, etc etc. So they can be prepared and know what to do to prevent pregancy.

I notice that there are a lot of people picketing against Planned Parenthood about the stupid issue of abortion and I wonder... Why in the hell arent they out there helping teenagers who are in trouble, who needs guidance and support when they cannot find one?

True, Planned Parenthood offers the option of abortion, but they also offer vast amount of information on how to prevent pregancy and information, clinics, classes etc. etc. on safe sex and they also includge pregant women. They even offer tests for sexually transmitted dieases, so anyone... ANYONE can go there and get tested.

The ULITMATE solution as I see is teaching your children and your friends and pratically everyone to know how to make the right decision for themselves and to know what to do when disaster strikes. Also, most importantly, tell your loved one that you are willing to support them through the hardship. THAT is the ULTIMATE solution to stopping people from using abortion. Its not guick, its not a clean solution, and unfortunatly... There is almost never a clean solution to everything.

If you think that making abortion illegal will make the problem go away. It will never go away. There WILL be womens who are desperate enough to attempt it themselves. Before abortion was leagalized and could be praticed in clinics.... MORE women died in attempted, unsafe abortion and along went the unborn childrens.

Am I against abortion? No... Not really, I only think that it should be reserved for the worst case secerio such as the unborn baby illness affecting the mom or etc. etc.

I'm really awfully sorry about the extremely long post. I only read the first page. If I missed something along this thread to the end that are import, sorry about that. Abortion is always a touchy issue for me and for everyone as well.

~M. Holbytlan

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: JordanRiver12881 on April 21, 2005, 06:36:58 pm

[quote author=Helix link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=15#msg773663 date=1100779351]
I'm absoloutley pro-choice. I'm fifteen years old and if I were to get pregnent now and decided to keep the baby my world would be completely turned around and I definetly wouldn't be able to do many of the things I plan to do. I would probably also end up resenting my child, and no kid deserves that.
There are also a variety of other reasons, such as rape, I mean, who would want to give birth to their rapist's baby?
[/quote]

I just have to say this one thing on that...my former first lady (the wife of the pastor, for those that don't know) was the product of a rape...she was born in the 50's to a Jewish mother..the rapist was African-American (so am I by the way) Now she is a great woman of God...conceiving a child through rape doesn't have to end badly...I will admit, she did tell stories of what her mom went through, but regardless, look at what the world would have lost if her mom decided to get rid of her, just because she was a product of rape, and would come out Black? We look at it as "Oh the child is a product of rape" But it's still a child, a potential for life, regardless of how it was conceived. If people can survive a rape (which millions of women and men across the globe have for centuries), then we should also be able to love the child...of course it wont be easy, no one said it would be, but look at the future you would be throwing away, a future, I might add that doesn't really belong to you...I think that this is part of our problem as humans...we often look for the easy way out...

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: eLijAhZpuMpKiNlOvE on April 21, 2005, 11:57:57 pm

Yes, that's true. But what about the severe pyscologial problems that would come out of it? For the mother, and also for the child. The child would, also, have no connection with it's father, and studies have shown that a large percentage of those in jail, have come from fatherless homes. Now, I'm not saying that it will definately happen, simply that it has happened in the past.

Additionally, the child may have some of it's father's 'traits', which would be previously unknown to the mother. The child may have severe anger or health problems, acquired from it's father's side. Although it is also possible that these problems are caused by the environment in which they are exposed to as they're developing. Again, I'm not saying that this is always a certainly, but in many cases, sadly, it is.

I'm not using this as a case for abortion, but you can't deny this reality. This is a really difficult debate, as different people believe different things for different reasons. I believe the decision to abort a child should be up to the individual. No two cases are the same.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on April 22, 2005, 05:27:29 am

I've read this thread before, so I just want to say this.

Abortion is a choice. If no one is forcing you to make that choice, then I think it's unfair to judge another person's use of their body. I mean, some people are against Euthanasia (a person who is in pain being allowed to die instead of living out through the pain) and that's a parallel example if you ask me. Other people are against body piercings, and good for them, but this is my body and I plan to keep my piercings.

It's great to have morals and God and whatever else, but this whole "they should do it" or "that's not right" or "that's sick" and "my one friend" arguments get repetitive and demonstrate absolutely nothing - where one person might be totally miserable after an abortion, another might be totally miserable giving up the child or else keeping it when they don't have any love for it. You can make an argument five ways from Sunday, but the basic fact is people are going to do what they want to do with their organs.

You have an opinion and that's great that you want to express it. But when you force that opinion onto someone's insides, I don't know, but that really tends to rub me the wrong way.

And if you're wondering, yes - I'm FOR Euthanasia.

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: JordanRiver12881 on April 23, 2005, 04:30:25 pm

[quote author=brad majors link=board=5;threadid=24296;start=120#msg863236 date=1114162049]

Abortion is a choice. If no one is forcing you to make that choice, then I think it's unfair to judge another person's use of their body.

...but the basic fact is people are going to do what they want to do with their organs.

You have an opinion and that's great that you want to express it. But when you force that opinion onto someone's insides, I don't know, but that really tends to rub me the wrong way.


[/quote]

I dont know if you are referring to me (i'm assuming you are since you seem to be referring to people who are Christian, or 'religious'), but I agree with you. We do have a choice. But don't assume that I'm judging people's actions or opinions by believing what I believe. Neither am I forcing my beliefs on anyone else, simply stating my opinion. I ask that you would for give me if you are not directing this statement at me, or if you aren't assuming that I'm judging people, etc. then maybe I just interpreted you wrong. But even if you aren't assuming that, I'm letting you know anyway that this was never my agenda. Simply stating that regardless of what statistics say, it doesn't have to end up like that.

I understand all the statistics, Le Deux Machina; I have grown up in a fatherless home myself. I do not belong to any statistic except that one and I'm proud of that. but if you notice, the woman I mentioned, she wasn't just any woman, but a Godly woman. You can take that statement however you want to, but I'm just pointing it out. ;)

Title: Re:Abortion Pill
Post by: curious bout efans on April 25, 2005, 09:12:32 pm

I was referring to the thread in general, actually - I don't tend to speak to just one person unless I quote them directly. And I'm not really offended, but more...annoyed, I suppose. Thing is, if I had tried not to get pregnant but something had gone wrong, for some reason, I'd want that choice to be able to abort. Sure, I could just abstain, but that's not the way I want to live my life.

And since I don't see myself pushing sex onto anyone else (i.e. if you wish to abstain, I completely respect that), I think that my mode of thought is generally all right.

That's all.


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