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Title: What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 11, 2007, 03:27:01 pm

I almost didn't start this because I'm sure most of the fans here will think I'm as loony as Luna, who I happen to like very much, btw. LOL

I haven't yet passed final judgement on old Severus. I don't know...I know he killed Dumbledore in the last book and I DO beleive that Dumbledore is dead, but somehow... He DID save Harry, more than once. He seemed sincere when he tried to teach Harry Occulency. He gave Delores Umbridge fake truth serum when she questioned Harry.

But what really makes me wonder is the fact that Dumbledore trusted him. I just don't see Albus as that big a fool, or a fool of any kind. COuld there be MORE to this than we know? Sure there can be. There always is in HP.

I am VERY much on the fence about this, mostly because of my faith in Dumbledore, and he trusted Snape.

Something's going on here.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: jubeth on July 11, 2007, 03:33:14 pm

I like Snape and I was really upset when he killed Dumbledore. I would love it if it turned out that it was some kind of plan/secret thing going on so that he is still working for the side of the light.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 11, 2007, 03:47:03 pm

I know. It suprised me, too I just can't help feeling there's something else going on. Dumbledore was the "only wizard Voldemort ever feared". There's no way he died because he was blinded by his own kindness.

DId you see the HIdden Secrets special on A&E? VERY interesting stuff.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: jubeth on July 11, 2007, 03:56:56 pm

I agree, Dumbledore is certainly no fool. You are so right, there has to be something more to this going on.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 11, 2007, 04:20:53 pm

Oooooh you're so in trouble!! Wait until Shayda sees this haha :P no just kidding.

I, myself, believe that SEVERUS SNAPE is INNOCENT! I think he's good and he didn't kill Dumbledore. I think they played some trick and now it seems as if Albus is dead. I really believe that Snape is a good fellow, working as a spie for Dumbledore, spying on Voldemort and te Deatheaters.

Haha me and my mom discussed this all day long the other day and we searched on internet and we came across THIS SITE (http://www.beyondhogwarts.com/). It's full of theories why Dumbledore is not dead and I think they're all true. I can't imagine Snape is bad, cause in the other books he protects Harry and all... No, he might be a little mean, but he's deff not EVIL!!

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: funny_fish on July 11, 2007, 04:29:28 pm

Oh dear, don't get me started on Snape. (Oops, I guess it's a little late for that.)

Here are some theories that I've always come back to:

Snape has a reason for "protecting" Harry. When he's trying to justify saving Harry on more than one occasion, when questioned by Bellatrix in HBP, he doesn't really have a good excuse. I think there is an underlying reason as to why Snape has saved Harry in the past that'll be revealed in the 7th book, and I don't think it has anything to do with the excuse he gave.

One of the more popular theories is that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore to protect Harry. In the beginning of HBP, Snape claims that he protected Harry because he couldn't kill him / let him die on Dumbledore's watch (since that'd look suspicious). However, at the end of HBP, he completely freaks out when Harry is hit with the Cruciatus and yells that they are to leave him for the Dark Lord. It just seems kind of odd that he approaches the idea of killing Harry so casually in discussion, like he would do it if he had the chance, but when Harry is actually in danger, he freaks. Even if Voldemort did request that Harry be left for him to kill, that decision could've been influenced by something Snape had told him.

Snape may be counting on Harry to kill Voldemort.

Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him (or some variation of that theory). As hard as I tried to believe this one, it's based on certain lines of text only. I don't believe Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, but Snape had no other choice, if he wanted to survive. The chances of Snape being able to fight off all of the other Death Eaters while trying to transport a half-dead Dumbledore to a safe place where he could heal him is highly unlikely. Also, it probably wouldn't have been worth it. Dumbledore may have never recovered fully (like with his hand).

He would also have Draco to worry about, seeing as he made the Unbreakable Vow. I'm still not entirely sure how the vow worked, but I was always under the impression that if Draco failed to kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't do it, then Snape would die. It's either that, or Snape would die if neither of them completed the task, and Draco was killed.

I don't believe that Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow that he made. When Dumbledore was having a private discussion with Draco, I believe he was being completely honest with him. When Draco brought it up, why did Dumbledore tell him that Snape was lying about the Unbreakable Vow to trick Draco, if he knew that it was true? He had no reason to lie about it. Dumbledore just didn't know.

I still don't know if Dumbledore told Snape about the DADA teacher "curse". If he didn't know, it would explain why he was so pissed off each year about not obtaining the position. It does seem kind of strange, though, that after all of those years, he wouldn't notice the pattern -- certainly he's not that oblivious.

Dumbledore obviously knew that whatever happened that year of Snape in the DADA position, he would be leaving, but I don't think he expected it to be in that fashion.

Snape is working for himself. Out of all of the theories out there, this is the one that I'm most inclined to believe. Whether the above theories are true or not, Snape could still be working for himself. He chooses his actions based on what will work best in his favour. He wants power for himself, and he'd prefer it if both Dumbledore and Voldemort were dead.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 11, 2007, 04:31:06 pm

Shayda's an intelliegent person and I can't imagine that she would object to reasonable speculative discussion. Wondering what's going on is the whole point, isn't it?

All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I'm open to any theory.

I'll pop over to the site after supper. Thanks for posting it!

Hazy, wonderful theories all of them! I lean, when I'm in a pro-Snape mood like today, not that Dumbledore WANTED Snape to kill him, but that it had to be for some reason. If it did, you can bet it was to save Harry and perhaps more people.

The only theory I have completely disavowed is that Dumbledore's blind trust of Snape allowed Snape to kill him. Nope. Uhuh. Not in this or any other lifetime.
Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 11, 2007, 04:50:17 pm

[quote author=Storyteller ~RSF~ link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1100843 date=1184185866]
The only theory I have completely disavowed is that Dumbledore's blind trust of Snape allowed Snape to kill him. Nope. Uhuh. Not in this or any other lifetime.[/quote]
Naaah I don't believe that either... Dumbledore knows EVERYTHING...

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: funny_fish on July 11, 2007, 05:19:47 pm

[quote author=Young&Desperate 4Attention{DA} link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1100845 date=1184187017]Dumbledore knows EVERYTHING...
[/quote]

If he knew everything, then why didn't he put Scabbers in a cage when Ron first came to Hogwarts and told him "Sorry Ron, but your rat is actually Peter Pettigrew, who betrayed your new best friend's parents, which resulted in their murders. Therefore, I must take him away..."

Why did it take him so long to figure out that Quirrell was after the Philosopher's Stone / possessed by Voldemort? If he had known, he wouldn't have left Hogwarts that night, and he probably would've saved Harry some trouble by getting rid of Quirrell/Voldy himself.

Why didn't Dumbledore know about Ginny writing in Tom Riddle's diary?

Why didn't Dumbledore know that Sirius Black was innocent all along?

Why didn't Dumbledore know right away that Harry had been set up in GOF? Why didn't he know that Mad-Eye was actually Barty Crouch Jr. until the very end, when everyone else found out?

I'm trying to think of examples from OoTP as well, but they're slipping my mind at the moment.

Also, in HBP, yes, Dumbledore knows that Draco wants to kill him, but he doesn't know everything. For example, he doesn't know that Madam Rosemerta is under the Imperius Curse.

Dumbledore isn't psychic. He doesn't know everything. So, it is possible that he didn't have a clue about the Unbreakable Vow or the fact that Snape would kill him if Draco failed.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: maryd on July 12, 2007, 04:22:29 am

Despite all these great theories, I can't see Snape as being told by Dumbledore to kill him, he's definately evil in my mind, but I can't wait to see if I'm proved wrong!

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 12, 2007, 07:31:52 am

Just because Dumbledore KNEW a thing, doesn't mean he would have taken action to stop it. Some things MUST be allowed to play their part.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: jubeth on July 12, 2007, 07:49:15 am

[quote author=maryd link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1100888 date=1184228549]
Despite all these great theories, I can't see Snape as being told by Dumbledore to kill him, he's definately evil in my mind, but I can't wait to see if I'm proved wrong!
[/quote]

And Snape is definately NOT evil in my mind, LOL.

Alot of you have very well thought out theories. I don't have any exciting or sexy theories, I just want him to still be on the side of the light because I like him.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 12, 2007, 08:01:27 am

I can't help thinking of Snapes memory of his father that Harry saw during their Oclumency lessons.

This is SNAPE'S memory and I wonder if it is possible that it is not EXACTY what happened. Our memories often are biased to our own point of view.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: jubeth on July 12, 2007, 08:05:37 am

[quote author=Storyteller ~RSF~ link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1101015 date=1184241687]
I can't help thinking of Snapes memory of his father that Harry saw during their Oclumency lessons.

This is SNAPE'S memory and I wonder if it is possible that it is not EXACTY what happened. Our memories often are biased to our own point of view.

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

That's a really good point Rach!!!

Our memories can be based on emotions and feelings as much if not more than fact.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 12, 2007, 08:26:31 am


Quote:
Our memories can be based on emotions and feelings as much if not more than fact.


Certainly true. Of course, Ms. Rowling COULD have also used this memory to partially vidicate Snape for his cruelty to Harry, as well.

Again, we have something involving Snape that could go either way.
Can't WAIT until the last book tells us all..hopefully...

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 12, 2007, 09:48:06 am

[quote author=hazy link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1100848 date=1184188787]
[quote author=Young&Desperate 4Attention{DA} link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1100845 date=1184187017]Dumbledore knows EVERYTHING...
[/quote]

If he knew everything, then why didn't he put Scabbers in a cage when Ron first came to Hogwarts and told him "Sorry Ron, but your rat is actually Peter Pettigrew, who betrayed your new best friend's parents, which resulted in their murders. Therefore, I must take him away..."

Why did it take him so long to figure out that Quirrell was after the Philosopher's Stone / possessed by Voldemort? If he had known, he wouldn't have left Hogwarts that night, and he probably would've saved Harry some trouble by getting rid of Quirrell/Voldy himself.

Why didn't Dumbledore know about Ginny writing in Tom Riddle's diary?

Why didn't Dumbledore know that Sirius Black was innocent all along?

Why didn't Dumbledore know right away that Harry had been set up in GOF? Why didn't he know that Mad-Eye was actually Barty Crouch Jr. until the very end, when everyone else found out?

I'm trying to think of examples from OoTP as well, but they're slipping my mind at the moment.

Also, in HBP, yes, Dumbledore knows that Draco wants to kill him, but he doesn't know everything. For example, he doesn't know that Madam Rosemerta is under the Imperius Curse.

Dumbledore isn't psychic. He doesn't know everything. So, it is possible that he didn't have a clue about the Unbreakable Vow or the fact that Snape would kill him if Draco failed.
[/quote]

one simple answer: He knew Harry and his friends would make it ;D Haha I dunnow you're right.. but he knows alot though...

I really don't think Snape is a bad guy, I really think he's Dumbledores spy, to spy on Voldemort and the whole crew.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Colleen on July 12, 2007, 11:14:58 am

Snape is a bad bad man. i'm set in my opinion. i've said before, if he ends up being a "good guy," i will rip my hair out. i hate Snape...hate. i love most of his sarcastic lines in the books and i love how Alan Rickman portrays this character on screen, but i absolutely hate the character himself. love to hate, really. ;)

i really have no theories on this, unfortunately, other than the evidence that is blantantly obvious. Snape killed Dumbledore in cold blood. JKR described it as "revulsion and hatred etched in the lines of his face." i guess it's my biased opinion of Snape that makes me believe this look of disgust had nothing to do with the fact that he hated himself for killing Dumbledore, he just hated Dumbledore.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: funny_fish on July 12, 2007, 05:21:51 pm

[quote author=Storyteller ~RSF~ link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=0#msg1101038 date=1184243191]

Quote:
Our memories can be based on emotions and feelings as much if not more than fact.


Certainly true. Of course, Ms. Rowling COULD have also used this memory to partially vidicate Snape for his cruelty to Harry, as well.
[/quote]

I think it's pretty accurate. It's a fact that James and Sirius in particular were troublemakers and landed in detention often. It's a fact that they disliked Snape and bullied him. It's a fact that Sirius put Snape in danger and didn't regret it (when he told Snape how to get to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack during the full moon, without telling him Lupin was a werewolf) - he said that Snape pretty much deserved it. Sirius called Snape "Snivellus" even in OoTP. So, I don't doubt that they would have pulled something like that off.

If there were any slight differences in point of view, like if you had seen the memory from, say, Sirius or James's point of view, the whole memory would've probably been more light-hearted and fun. Of course Snape's memory would be more traumatizing because he was the one actually being hurt.

Also, in regards to everything Snape has told Harry about James and Sirius, in an attempt to portray them in a negative light -- I do believe he's telling the truth. He just leaves out anything positive (the fact that James saved him at one point, or that he was good to his own friends), because of his deep hatred for them. Harry is the opposite. Harry, deep down, acknowledges that his father and Sirius were at some point the way Snape described them, but his hatred for Snape overrides those feelings.

So, I do agree that Harry seeing Snape's memory was used to partially vindicate Snape for his cruelty to Harry. Even though that lightbulb moment was short-lived in Harry's world, it's still something that has stuck with most of the readers.

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=15#msg1101285 date=1184253298]
Snape is a bad bad man. i'm set in my opinion. i've said before, if he ends up being a "good guy," i will rip my hair out. i hate Snape...hate. i love most of his sarcastic lines in the books and i love how Alan Rickman portrays this character on screen, but i absolutely hate the character himself. love to hate, really. ;)[/quote]

I don't understand why people can just hate Snape. I guess at this point I should mention that I have a completely biased opinion toward Snape because if there's one character I can relate to in the book, it would be Snape. :P Although I ain't meddling in the Dark Arts and I have no intention of killing anyone.

Snape was only able to find comfort in the Dark Arts and friendship in fellow Slytherins, which is likely what brought him to join the Death Eaters. Snape felt like he'd found a place where he belonged and was accepted, as he wasn't accepted anywhere else.

Snape's behaviour toward Harry, his feelings toward certain individuals, his general attitude and most of his actions aren't acceptable, but they didn't just come out of nowhere. I could go on about it, but I feel enough like a drone already.

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=15#msg1101285 date=1184253298]i really have no theories on this, unfortunately, other than the evidence that is blantantly obvious. Snape killed Dumbledore in cold blood. JKR described it as "revulsion and hatred etched in the lines of his face." i guess it's my biased opinion of Snape that makes me believe this look of disgust had nothing to do with the fact that he hated himself for killing Dumbledore, he just hated Dumbledore.
[/quote]

The whole deal with Snape killing Dumbledore, under the assumption that Snape is working solely for Voldemort or himself, reminds me of a line from, oddly enough, "CSI: Miami", when a woman who killed the man who raped her, who was her real estate agent, and went free for years (as someone else was convicted). She said something along the lines of "Do you understand why I had to do it?" to which the response was, "I don't approve, but I understand what brought you to that point."

However, in this case, we don't exactly know what exactly brought Snape to that point.

It could be partially be a result of, as Snape said himself, the fact that Dumbledore always has to see the best in people. This doesn't just apply to Snape; it also applies to present students, teachers, as well as old students and teachers at Hogwarts.

I think part of Snape's bitterness toward Dumbledore could have to do with how, during his days as a student at Hogwarts, Dumbledore kind of brushed off the fact that Snape was being bullied mainly by James and Sirius, because he had to see the best in them. Also, during his time as a teacher at Hogwarts, Dumbledore seemed to take him for granted. Perhaps he felt like he was being used. None of those reasons are an excuse to kill someone, though, and I also think it goes a bit deeper than that.

Whether Snape is good, bad, or neither, he still had to mean it when he killed Dumbledore. He still had to draw upon something. I don't believe that you could kill someone with the Avada Kedavra out of hatred for the fact that you were going to kill them.

Nothing will change the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore, but I can't stand it when people view it in such a shallow way.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: SuzieQ on July 13, 2007, 12:55:57 am

There were posts about Dumbledore possibly actually being alive and I'm pretty sure that J.K. Rowling said that Dumbledore is dead.

I wanna hate Snape sooo much but he just cracks me up! He steals every scene he's in!! I can't help but think that Snape killed him becuase he had to but I could be waaaay off!

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 13, 2007, 07:32:18 am

To be honest, I didn't imagine when starting this thread that it would arouse such interest but I'm glad it did.

Yes, Jo Rowling has said that Dumbledore is definately dead and I beleive her. I will just be glad when the book arrives on my doorstep a week from Saturday. Then all qustions will be answered...hopefully.

Hugs,
Rach


Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: mayadeprei on July 14, 2007, 06:16:12 am

Interesting thread! When I have more time I'll read all of yout theories. For now just mine and my friends. We think Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him because he was already dying. You remember the infection on his hand, we think Dumbledore was already slowly dying and that he had asked Snape to kill him when the time was there.

That's it for now, I'll be back after vacation, lol, when all of you have already read the book :'(.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Nutella Sister on July 14, 2007, 06:29:13 am

I don't think Snape is a bad guy although I don't like him at all ::) he's in the go0d side and about kill9ing Dumbledore..as I said on my teory, he and Dumbledore had this killing thing as a plan and it's not real!..

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 14, 2007, 11:06:58 am

[quote author=Hogwarts Magical Girl {DA} link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=15#msg1102301 date=1184408953]
he's in the go0d side and about kill9ing Dumbledore..as I said on my teory, he and Dumbledore had this killing thing as a plan and it's not real!..
[/quote]
I totally agree ;D But we'll see... in just 7 days ;D

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: jubeth on July 14, 2007, 11:15:43 am

Wow, only 7 days to go now!!! ;D

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 14, 2007, 11:31:47 am

haha my daddy promised me and my mum he'd get in Saturdaymorning, very early haha he's the best lol

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: SuzieQ on July 14, 2007, 11:02:58 pm

[quote author=Hogwarts Magical Girl {DA} link=board=4;threadid=32479;start=15#msg1102301 date=1184408953]
I don't think Snape is a bad guy although I don't like him at all ::) he's in the go0d side and about kill9ing Dumbledore..as I said on my teory, he and Dumbledore had this killing thing as a plan and it's not real!..
[/quote]

I never really thought of it that way and it makes sense....like how he told Harry to do whatever he tells him to. He made Harry swear to make him continue drinking that potion even it was doing him harm

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Nutella Sister on July 15, 2007, 03:01:42 am

[color=Purple]Pamela Wow! I have to wait more for the translation...no english copy here :( :'(

Suzie Q I know all of the theory, (the complete one) maks sense for me... so I'm so waiting for it..getting nerveous and excited :-\ :D :-\ [/color]

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 15, 2007, 06:11:09 am

Really Shayda? Aww I'm sorry for you... *huggleS*

Well I believe Snape is a good man, cause he protects Harry. He does all these things so keep Harry safe, even though he gets a little injured sometimes.

Title: Re:What about Snape?
Post by: Storyteller on July 15, 2007, 08:44:01 am

Snape is, if nothing else, a man of great contradictions.

In the new movie, Alan Rickman CERTAINLY plays Snape as sincere in the effort to teach Harry Occlumency. I just can't put him down as totally bad. But most of all, i keep going back to Dumbledore's trust in him.

Can't wait to find out what is REALLY going on. 6 more days to go!

I've already warned my hubby that things will be REALLY quiet around here next Sunday. Alex, a good friend of mine, said her husband made her order TWO copies of the book so they don't have to share! LOL We have agreed NOT to talk about the book until we are both finished. LOL

Hugs,
Rach


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