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Title: The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 06, 2005, 03:52:23 am

Now that the first part of the assignment is almost over, I thought it was about time to start a discussion thread. In order not to spoil things for people who are reading a bit slower, I have to ask you only to discuss those chapters that we have been reading the previous week and not the chapters of the current week. This thread is open for everyone who has read the books, you don’t have to be part of the book reading club to participate in this discussion. But please, do respect our reading schedule (which can be found HERE (http://always.ejwsites.net/YaBBSE/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=28671)).

What are your thoughts about the prologue and first three chapters? What did you like? What didn’t you like? And for those of you who are reading LotR for the very first time.. Does the book meet your expectations?

Happy reading!

PS: please keep this thread for discussions about the books, other questions or remarks can go in the other thread.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 06, 2005, 03:54:51 pm

I always love the "Concerning Hobbits" section. Tolkien really gives us a background, a history if you will, of his creation!

It is in the first chapter that I feel in love (so to speak) with Sam Gamgee, when he is sitting in the pub being laughed at because he believes in dragons. I really identify with him there, because I have always been a practical person with a side that believes in more.

I'm going to try not to say too much right away! LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 06, 2005, 04:35:51 pm

I know what you mean, it makes it so much more real. I always love books where the characters have a history and don't just live in the present. I also love the way how Peter Jackson incorporated the prologue in the EE of FotR.

Sam is just very naive, which makes him so adorable. I think that's one of the main reasons that makes him such a beloved character.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 06, 2005, 04:54:20 pm

so far, i absolutely adore Pippin. he's so funny!

it's pretty different so far. in the sense that Pippin goes along with Frodo and Sam, they not only see but talk to the Elves, and Frodo waits a lot longer to leave than he does in the movies. also, that whole bit about selling his house to Lobelia and moving to Buckland? where is he going to go at the end of his journey when he comes back to the Shire before leaving Middle-Earth? does he go back to Buckland instead? that would be a bit weird, but i guess we'll see...

yay! this is too much fun

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 06, 2005, 05:11:48 pm

if you think that's different, wait till you get to the very end, the TRUE end of the story wasn't in the theaters. But don't worry, I won't tell!

I envy you a bit, experiencing it all for the first time! Of course, everytime you read this book, you find something new. I'm STILL finding things!

Yes, Sam IS naive. He's always lived in the Shire, the comfortable, safe Shire! Sean said an interesting thing about it that. He said it is one thing to be ignorant of the world and good, but it is another to learn the things Sam learns,and STILL be good, a sort of informed goodness.

I thought he put it very nicely.

Hugs,
Rach - whose lips are sealed! LOL

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 06, 2005, 05:30:52 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935566 date=1131315108]
if you think that's different, wait till you get to the very end, the TRUE end of the story wasn't in the theaters. But don't worry, I won't tell!
[/quote]
uh oh....now i'm nervous lol. theres another ending? haha, theres like 50 already!

by the way, welcome to the board! :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 06, 2005, 10:39:21 pm

Yes, we have definitely seen several differences already between the books and the movies. I think it's interesting that in the book, it is clear that Merry is a special friend of Frodo's, helping him in several ways. And, then Pippin accompanies Frodo and Sam. In the movies, Merry and Pippin are so often a pair and people can't even tell them apart, but in the book they each have a clear and separate relationship with Frodo and don't seem quite as linked with each other - they're friends, but not quite as inseparable.

And, of course, the film completely leaves out meeting Gildor and the other elves.

I agree that Sam is naive and good and completely loveable. :)

It was also fun to see several quotes in The Shadow of the Past that are in the film, although several are placed later, like in the conversation between Frodo and Gandalf in Moria (All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.), the introduction spoken by Galadriel (the Ring was lost. . .) and the beginning of ROTK with Smeagol and Deagol.

I think I'll stop there for now. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 07, 2005, 01:31:24 am

[color=Blue]I finished Chapter 3 at midnight last night. ;D
And since it was midnight, I kept reading for 30 minutes more. ;D

This is my second reading of LOTR, and I'm sure it will be just as special, if not more, than the first time. :D

I love the Prologue - it feels like you're having an actual conversation with Tolkien - as if he is speaking to you. It's really special. And we learn a lot more about Hobbits and their ways, which is great.

When I read for the first time that Frodo sold Bag End (after I'd seen FOTR) I felt a little sad. I'm not sure why, it's only a house but the change seemed so major to me. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is..
Any ideas? ;)

Although I enjoy reading about the Hobbits' journey, and their meetings with the Elves along the way. I would love to try some of that cool honey drink. Does anyone have more info on that? ;)[/color]


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Annouille on November 07, 2005, 03:25:33 am

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935556 date=1131314060]... and Frodo waits a lot longer to leave than he does in the movies.

Yeah they live the Shire 17 years later than the movie.

also, that whole bit about selling his house to Lobelia and moving to Buckland? where is he going to go at the end of his journey when he comes back to the Shire before leaving Middle-Earth? does he go back to Buckland instead? that would be a bit weird, but i guess we'll see...

[color=Blue]I know the answer, but I don't tell it, because the answer is at the end of the book, and it's bad to tell the end of the story, while people is in the begin of the book! ;)

But, if you want absolutly the answer because you can't wait, tell me in a PM ;)[/color]

yay! this is too much fun
[/quote]

[color=Blue]I love to see all the differences with the movie.
I maybe read the book for the 8th time, (and the same for the movie) but it's always exciting! :D[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 07, 2005, 12:07:58 pm

I mentioned in an email to Cristiel that I'd come across this cartoon from the Nov. 7th issue ot "The New Yorker" and felt it just had to be shared. I hope you'll all forgive this intrusion into the dicussion (I'll be back later with some questions of my own) but I just had to share this with all of you.

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/magicdancer/Miscellaneous/100_0186.jpg[/IMG]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 07, 2005, 12:34:24 pm

Cute Yeux! :D

And, Carina. I agree. Having the whole prologue adds such depth to the story with a history and some details about hobbits that may not really be important to the story per se, but add to the feeling that the alternative world is real and complete even if we only see a few of its events and locations.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 07, 2005, 12:37:00 pm

um, i kinda didnt like the prologue. it was like reading a History book to me (which is my worst subject ::)) i didnt enjoy it... :P in fact (dont hate me forever guys!) i kinda just skimmed it and only actually read about the Hobbits. :-X :-[

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 07, 2005, 12:57:16 pm

Hehe Yeux, that's really cute! :D


on 1131384864, Celebrian wrote:
And, Carina. I agree. Having the whole prologue adds such depth to the story with a history and some details about hobbits that may not really be important to the story per se, but add to the feeling that the alternative world is real and complete even if we only see a few of its events and locations.


Exactly my feeling. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 07, 2005, 01:03:37 pm

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935766 date=1131385020]
um, i kinda didnt like the prologue. it was like reading a History book to me (which is my worst subject ::)) i didnt enjoy it... :P in fact (dont hate me forever guys!) i kinda just skimmed it and only actually read about the Hobbits. :-X :-[
[/quote]

Of course we don't hate you. ;D Different people like different things. I will admit that on a level of pure enjoyment, I like reading the main story better than the prologue. But, I love the prologue for what it is and what it means to Tolkien's "universe" that we get to enter in the story.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 07, 2005, 01:31:36 pm

That's a funny cartoon indeed, Yeux LOL ;D


Quote:
um, i kinda didnt like the prologue. it was like reading a History book to me (which is my worst subject ) i didnt enjoy it... in fact (dont hate me forever guys!) i kinda just skimmed it and only actually read about the Hobbits.


You're not the only one Moonlit Sky. In fact, my boyfriend, who's reading with us, was reading the prologue and only after five minutes, he looked up and said: "Do I really need to read this? I feel like I'm back at school reading a boring history book." ;D

Although most people see the prologue as a nice piece of background information, it is not essential to the story. So there's no reason at all to feel bad because you didn't like it.

So, what did you girls think about the difference between the books and the movies? Which one did you like more?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 07, 2005, 01:40:15 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935789 date=1131386617]
[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935766 date=1131385020]
um, i kinda didnt like the prologue. it was like reading a History book to me (which is my worst subject ::)) i didnt enjoy it... :P in fact (dont hate me forever guys!) i kinda just skimmed it and only actually read about the Hobbits. :-X :-[
[/quote]

Of course we don't hate you. ;D Different people like different things. I will admit that on a level of pure enjoyment, I like reading the main story better than the prologue. But, I love the prologue for what it is and what it means to Tolkien's "universe" that we get to enter in the story.
[/quote]

Of course we don't hate you, Moonlit. :-*


on 1131388296, Cristiel wrote:
So, what did you girls think about the difference between the books and the movies? Which one did you like more?


[color=Blue]As I said above, the biggest difference for me was that Frodo sold Bag End in the book whereas he doesn't do this in the film. I saw the film before I read the book and naturally assumed he would keep the house and when I read that he had sold it, I felt a little... sad(?) I can't exactly pinpoint the emotion, but Bag End was obviously so close to Frodo's heart and it felt sad that he sold it. I wonder why Peter Jackson changed this part in the movie.

:)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 07, 2005, 01:52:25 pm

Well, one of the main differences in the movie, was that they had to compress the timeframe and leave out a lot of stuff before the hobbits were traveling. With Frodo leaving immediately, there really wasn't time or opportunity to have done all that planning or to have sold the house. And, as much as I think it really does matter to the story in the book, it was one of those things that was pretty easy to leave out of the movie without it causing problems of understanding or anything. In the movie, the sadness comes from jumping up and leaving everything he's known suddenly and with minimal preparation and it also moves the story along.

I feel like I'm rambling and saying very little, so that means i should just stop here. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Annouille on November 07, 2005, 02:04:54 pm

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=0#msg935766 date=1131385020]
um, i kinda didnt like the prologue. it was like reading a History book to me (which is my worst subject ::)) i didnt enjoy it... :P in fact (dont hate me forever guys!) i kinda just skimmed it and only actually read about the Hobbits. :-X :-[
[/quote]

Of course, we don't hate you! :) You can like and dislike what you want.


But for me I love the prologue, I love History, I was pretty good at school.... and my brother is History/Geography, so.... ;D ;) And I love the chapter Concerning Hobbits, it's so cute.

Now I will start the chapter 4! :D ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 07, 2005, 02:40:59 pm

Wow! This is already on page 2 and I am just joining in. I absolutely enjoyed reading the Prologue and first three chapters. I must confess that the first time I read the books (summer of 2004) I read them very quickly only because I wanted to see what the differences were from the books and the movies. I did not fully enjoy them. This time I am thoroughly enjoying the book for the book's sake.

I love Tolien's literary style. I ever never seen a "writing style" quite like his before but I love it.

I found the prologue very interesting but I enjoyed the actual story more.

When Frodo was taking his time leaving the Shire, I found myself thinking "Get out, get out before the Black Riders come!" I was "nervous" about him staying in the Shire so long. :)

And, after reading these three chapters, I love Sam's character more than ever! I love certain phrases he uses like "Begging your pardon but...."

As far as the differences between the books and the movies, I don't really have a favorite at this point (though I probably will when we finish reading the books) but I am glad the books and the movies are not just alike. That way there will be some surprises in the book.

More later. This post is alreay long enough. :)


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 07, 2005, 03:52:41 pm


Quote:
And, after reading these three chapters, I love Sam's character more than ever! I love certain phrases he uses like "Begging your pardon but...."


yeah! My quote worked!

ALL of Tolkien's heroes have certain qualities, the greatest of which is humility. You will see that the more pride a character has, the more likely he is to trip up, so to speak.

Tolkien's heroes aren't like the ones we are used to these days, which are actually anti-heroes. That's not to say that anti-heroes are bad, its just a different "style" of hero.

I am going to avoid the literary term for this kind of hero until I know you all better, but if you look at TOlkien's heroes (and they are many) you will see that they are all humble. Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf - all were reluctant fighters. We will see how Tolkien uses pride as a fatal flaw as you proceed.

Has everyone here seen the films? I don't want to spoil anything for any one and I haven't been here long enough to know.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 07, 2005, 05:27:50 pm

Good idea, Rach. Anyone who hasn't seen the films, please let us know here.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: nuke33 on November 07, 2005, 08:32:49 pm

After reading the first few chapters, I get the same impression I got when I read them for the very first time, many years before the movies.

The relationship between Sam and Frodo is one of the most touching, honest and beautiful friendships in literary history. Sam devotion to Frodo is of the purest love. It's a credit to Elijah and Sean that were able to portray this so well in the movies.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 07, 2005, 08:39:19 pm

see, i dont see the friendship between Frodo and Sam as strong as i know its going to get yet. my guess it will really show itself more when Frodo and Sam go off by themselves at the end of this book....maybe earlier, i dont know...

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 07, 2005, 09:14:31 pm

I see your point, Moonlit, but think about this. The friendship HAD to exist before the quest began. Look at what Sam did, what he gave up to go with Frodo. He had an elderly father he took care of (the gaffer had given up gardening 18 years before because he was no longer able to do the work). Sam was ALREADY in love with Rose, but he gave her up too. Sam told people that if Frodo didn't return, he wouldn't either. This is BEFORE they left Hobbiton! He was fully prepared to give up the life he had in the Shire. That kind of devotion isn't simply employee loyalty. There had to be a deep friendship there, too, the kind that has to be built over time.

The relationship started long before the book. It had to. Nothing else makes sense. But it DID grow even stronger through the trials of the quest.

Oh dear! There is a point I'd like to make but it might be a spoiler. Better keep it to myself ! LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 07, 2005, 09:19:33 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=15#msg936017 date=1131416071]
I see your point, Moonlit, but think about this. The friendship HAD to exist before the quest began. Look at what Sam did, what he gave up to go with Frodo. He had an elderly father he took care of (the gaffer had given up gardening 18 years before because he was no longer able to do the work). Sam was ALREADY in love with Rose, but he gave her up too. Sam told people that if Frodo didn't return, he wouldn't either. This is BEFORE they left Hobbiton! He was fully prepared to give up the life he had in the Shire. That kind of devotion isn't simply employee loyalty. There had to be a deep friendship there, too, the kind that has to be built over time.

The relationship started long before the book. It had to. Nothing else makes sense. But it DID grow even stronger through the trials of the quest.

Oh dear! There is a point I'd like to make but it might be a spoiler. Better keep it to myself ! LOL

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]
lol.

well, Sam is obviously showing care for Frodo, and i dont doubt that they were really good friends, it just seems like Frodo is better friends with Merry and Pippin than he is with Sam. but thats just what i'm noticing now...i'm sure it will make itself more evident later on in the book or series.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 07, 2005, 09:27:12 pm

I think you have a good point Moonlit Sky. Because Frodo's relationship with Merry and Pippin is made much more clear in the book, they do seem a bit closer than Sam. But, one reason for that is the nature of the relationships. Frodo and Sam are certainly friends, but they are also employer/employee and they have different statuses. Merry and Pippin share Frodo's higher status, so are friends without the cross-status issue and at least Merry is also a cousin of some sort (is Pippin too?).

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 07, 2005, 09:31:12 pm

Both Merry and Pippin are Frodo's cousins. Merry is a bit closer.

It looks like we are saying that Sam is closer to Frodo than Frodo is to Sam...

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 07, 2005, 09:36:12 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=15#msg936027 date=1131417072]
It looks like we are saying that Sam is closer to Frodo than Frodo is to Sam...
[/quote]
exactly.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 07, 2005, 10:08:42 pm

Ok, I can live with that assessment. Poor Sam. :( That's a hard place to be.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 07, 2005, 10:28:33 pm

I get the idea that Sam fully respects, admires and loves Frodo. And I think Frodo likes Sam very much. But I agree that Sam is probably closer to Frodo than Frodo is to Sam....at least at this point.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 07, 2005, 10:39:46 pm

Tolkien modeled Sam after a "batsman" in the British army. These were enlisted men assigned to officers as aides, and were known for their loyalty, even to dying for the officer to whom they were assigned. He referred to them as, "So much better than I."

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Annouille on November 08, 2005, 04:17:29 am

I love the relationship between Frodo and Sam, they are so cute together. It's for this reason i don't really love the way that Pater has taken in the ROTK when Frodo, Sam and Gollum are in Cirith Ungol. I don't love when Frodo ban Sam. Their relationship is to strong for me, and so Gollum mustn't broken this relation.

And I love Sam, more in the book than the movie. I think this is for the love he has for Mister Frodo. :) :-*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 08, 2005, 06:30:06 am

I loved reading all your comments about Frodo and Sam. :D

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=15#msg935851 date=1131389545]Well, one of the main differences in the movie, was that they had to compress the timeframe and leave out a lot of stuff before the hobbits were traveling. With Frodo leaving immediately, there really wasn't time or opportunity to have done all that planning or to have sold the house. And, as much as I think it really does matter to the story in the book, it was one of those things that was pretty easy to leave out of the movie without it causing problems of understanding or anything. In the movie, the sadness comes from jumping up and leaving everything he's known suddenly and with minimal preparation and it also moves the story along.

I feel like I'm rambling and saying very little, so that means i should just stop here. ;D
[/quote]

[color=Blue]I think you're completely right, there was no time for the house sale etc. in the movie so they just left it out and I also agree what you said about it being important in the book, it works just fine in the movie. Thanks Celebrian. :-*

Two more differences that I have noted is 1) Merry and Pippin entering the book much later, and in fact Merry and Pippin seem less close in the book (at the moment) and 2) The movie Gandalf seems much more kindly and warm, he shoots off the fireworks for the children but the in book he doesn't. And the friendship between Bilbo and Gandalf seems more apparent in the movie.

It feels so good to be able to discuss and talk about my thoughts. :D[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 08, 2005, 04:45:43 pm

I noticed that, too, Carina. You really see Gandalf and Bilbo's friendship more clearly in the book than you do in the movie.

Also, at least so far, Merry and Pippin seem more mature and responsible and less mischievious than they are in the beginning of the movie. :D

Is Rose mentioned in the beginning of this book? I missed that part if she is mentioned.

Also, I love the comparison Tolkien used of Sam being like a batsman in the British army. Thanks for sharing that with us, Story. Sam gave up so much to go with Frodo.

I also like the point Story made about Tolkien's hero's being humble, reluctant heros. I, personally, like this kind of hero. Very different than most modern day fictional (and real) heros.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 08, 2005, 06:08:57 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=30#msg936307 date=1131486343]
I noticed that, too, Carina. You really see Gandalf and Bilbo's friendship more clearly in the book than you do in the movie.

Which do you prefer? Or do you think both work fine just the way they are? :)

Also, at least so far, Merry and Pippin seem more mature and responsible and less mischievious than they are in the beginning of the movie. :D

[color=Blue]Oh yes, that's true. ;D
Remember the fireworks... ;D[/color]

Is Rose mentioned in the beginning of this book? I missed that part if she is mentioned.

Hmm, as far as I remember, I don't think she is.. (but I'm not entirely sure).

Also, I love the comparison Tolkien used of Sam being like a batsman in the British army. Thanks for sharing that with us, Story. Sam gave up so much to go with Frodo.

[color=Blue]Yes, I also really liked that. :D
Dear Sam.[/color]

I also like the point Story made about Tolkien's hero's being humble, reluctant heros. I, personally, like this kind of hero. Very different than most modern day fictional (and real) heros.

A true hero! :D
[/quote]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 08, 2005, 09:01:31 pm

This is my third reading of LOTR and there is something I've wondered about since my first reading. We all accept that Frodo is Bilbo's nephew, but I can't figure out why there is a reference to Frodo and Bilbo being cousins, too. Here are various references.

Prologue, last paragraph of Part 3 --
...How much or how little he [Bilbo] revealed to no one, not even to Frodo his favourite nephew.....

Chapter One, first page --
....But he [Bilbo] had no close friends, until some of his younger cousins began to grow up. The eldest of these, and Bilbo's favourite, was young Frodo Baggins.....

Chapter One, seven pages after the above citation --
....Secondly, to celebrate my [Bilbo] birthday. Cheers again. I should say: OUR birthday. For it is, of course, also the birthday of my heir and nephew, Frodo.....

OK. Can anyone explain to me why in Chapter One on the first page, Bilbo and Frodo are referred to as cousins?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 08, 2005, 09:38:43 pm

Actually, if you look at the family trees in the appendices, Frodo is not his nephew he is Bilbo's cousin on both sides of the family.

To quote the Gaffer: "So Mr. Frodo is his first and second cousin, once removed either way." I think they refer to nephew because of the age difference, but that is not actually correct.

I also agree with all the points Rose and Carina were agreeing on a couple of posts up. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 08, 2005, 10:00:35 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=30#msg936380 date=1131503923]
Actually, if you look at the family trees in the appendices, Frodo is not his nephew he is Bilbo's cousin on both sides of the family.[/quote]

I did, and that's why I was wondering why Tolkien kept referring to Frodo as Bilbo's nephew.


Quote:
To quote the Gaffer: "So Mr. Frodo is his first and second cousin, once removed either way." I think they refer to nephew because of the age difference, but that is not actually correct.


OK, I guess I can buy that. There was a large age difference. It would explain why Frodo is referred to as Bilbo's nephew.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 08, 2005, 11:30:45 pm


Great question, Yeux. I had not caught that Frodo was referred to as both Bilbo's nephew and his cousin. But I think Celebrian point is correct...it was probably becaause of the age difference.

[quote author=Carina link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=30#msg936328 date=1131491337]
[quote author=Rose link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=30#msg936307 date=1131486343]
I noticed that, too, Carina. You really see Gandalf and Bilbo's friendship more clearly in the book than you do in the movie.

Which do you prefer? Or do you think both work fine just the way they are? :)

[/quote]

I think I actually prefer the book on this. It really helped to understand Gandalf and Bilbo's friendship a bit better. Which do you prefer?[/quote]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Joanie on November 09, 2005, 12:04:26 am

I have to agree. Because of the age difference Bilbo was more an uncle to Frodo than a cousin. I'm really enjoying everyone's comments/questions here. I tried to read the prologue, but I'm ashamed to say I just skimmed through it and got right down to the story. :-[

I have a vague understanding of hobbits, so I thought I'd just go straight to chapter 1. I have to say that I am quite enjoying it, now that I know I don't have to return the book in 3 weeks. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 09, 2005, 10:08:59 am

Ok, I can clear up the uncle/cousin thing. Bilbo was actually Frodo's cousin by blood, but it is hobbit tradition for an ADOPTED child to refer to his adoptive parent as "Uncle" or "Aunt".

I wish I could tell you where I read this, but I have read so many reference books I couldn't afford sitting in the floors of bookstores, I couldn't BEGIN to guess! LOL

Now that i can afford them, I don't find as many good ones. I have most of the HOME books but i still want "The Peoples of Middle-Earth" and a couple of others.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 09, 2005, 01:48:01 pm

The adoption information is really interesting, Story. I had never heard that, but it makes a lot of sense. :)

That is another example of how complete and deep Tolkien's world is and how that adds depth to the story (as I said earlier with reference to the prologue). It's amazing how easily we can talk about Middle Earth as a real place with various customs and history and quirks despite the fact that it all came out of Tolkien's imagination and is really only described in a fairly small number of books.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 09, 2005, 01:54:45 pm

SO easy that sometimes I got too far. I have made a hobby of hobbits and have written (am writing) a history of the hobbit people. (Yeah, I admit it. I'm a geek!) SO many times when was researching, I would come to a battle or another event and want to know something about it. I'd find myself thinking, "I should go to the library. That has to be recorded somewhere."

OK, reality check, Rach! LOL No, it doesn't have to be recorded because it NEVER HAPPENED! LOL All we have is whatever Professor Tolkien has written, but there is so much of that and it is SO REAL, that we tend to get caught up and lose, for a moment, the fact that it isn't...fact.

OK maybe it's just me? Now you are all SURE I'm crazy!LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 02:43:01 am

You're not crazy at all, Rach. It's a sign of Tolkien's brilliance that we tend to forget the places, people and incidents from LOTR aren't real.

Now if you want "crazy"....well, I'd love to learn to speak Elvish. And if I lived near the Univ. of Wisconsin at Madison, I could. It's taught there. I have the instructor's text book, but I want to hear it, not just read it.


Edit: P.S. Thanks, Rach, for the explanation about Hobbits, cousins, nephews and uncles. Sounds good to me. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 10, 2005, 07:25:03 am

Yeux,
There are several online Elvish tutorials. I can PM you the sites if you'd like. Let me know.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 10, 2005, 08:47:07 pm

[color=Blue]You're not crazy Rach, I really like the way you think. :D
And I really wish Middle Earth was real. :'( :-*[/color]


on 1131510645]I think I actually prefer the book on this. It really helped to understand Gandalf and Bilbo's friendship a bit better. Which do you prefer?[/quote][quote, Rose wrote:


[color=Blue]Hmm, interesting point of view, Rose. :D

For me, both "portrayals" of Gandalf work very well but I think a part of me prefers the movie Gandalf, the one who is a little warmer, although no doubt the Gandalf in the book is a gem too. In the book, I don't think it should be any other way since, like you said, it helps to understand their friendship a little better but I also like how it was done in the movies since Gandalf is really kind to the children and very warm towards Bilbo. That must be how PJ saw Gandalf and I think it's a lovely way of looking at the character. :D

I'm not sure I made much sense.. :P[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 09:06:05 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=30#msg937020 date=1131625503]
Yeux,
There are several online Elvish tutorials. I can PM you the sites if you'd like. Let me know.

Hugs,
Rach [/quote]

Oh, I happily accept your offer, Rach. Thanks so much. :-*

I saw this in an online review by a man who had seen the LOTR Symphony performed in Nashville, TN. I don't know if it really fits here (didn't know where else to post it) but I thought it was cute and wanted to share it with you:

Images from Tolkien's works are indelibly etched on my brain, and not even the compelling interpretation of the films has been able to erase the vision implanted by multiple readings. Elijah Wood's hauntingly beautiful blue eyes are only a slight distraction from the middle-aged, care-worn and rusty-haired Frodo of the books that still lives in my mind ("Frodo Lives!") In fact, Sean Astin's Samwise looks more like my idea of Frodo than Elijah Wood's half-Heathcliffe, half-Oliver Twist.

I love the half-Heathcliffe, half-Oliver Twist reference. Very true. ;D

http://www.bradleyweekly.com/melton.cfm?id=3575



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 10, 2005, 09:11:17 pm

I think it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure that Tolkien would have seen a lot of difference in the two.
I am going to bring up The Hobbit. I hope that's ok. If I shouldn't, don't feel bad about letting me know, but I don't think this is TOO spoilerish.

Gandalf had known the hobbits LONG before Bilbo was ever born, and was especially close to the Took family, relations of Bilbo's and of Frodo's, of course. It says in The Hobbit that he once gave The Old Took a gift of magic diamond studs that opened and closed on command. He also helped the hobbits survive the Long Winter of 1158. I presume he did this by providing food, but that is purely speculation on my part.
In short, he had been involved with hobbits for a long time and had established a firm friendship with them before he came to Hobbiton looking for Bilbo that April day. I think this may be the reason PJ saw him as a sort of grandfatherly figure to the Little Folk.

As an aside, it also makes me wonder WHAT Gandalf knew and WHEN he knew it.

LOL Yeux I JUST posted that same quote somewhere! LOL Too weird!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 09:27:42 pm

Yes, that's all very true, Rach. And it's certainly OK to bring up The Hobbit in our discussion. Especially since in many respects it serves as a prelude and also provides answers to many LOTR questions. There are some parts much, much later in our LOTR reading where I intend to bring up The Silmarillion.

Quote: As an aside, it also makes me wonder WHAT Gandalf knew and WHEN he knew it.

Ahh yes, wouldn't that be nice to know. 8)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 10, 2005, 09:35:11 pm

Somewhere I read that the Miar were each attached to a member of the Valar and that Olorin, which was Gandalf's original name, was attached to Manwe. Since Manwe was the closest Valar to Eru, Gandalf actually had a glimpse of the full plan for ME that existed in the mind of Eru. Now, if you take THAT into consideration, it opens up a WHOLE WORLD of possibilities for what he knew and when.

OK.. Looking back, I have just freaked out everyone who hasn't read the Silm. I'm sorry.

I have read it but I don't understand parts of it. I am starting a read thorough on my forum and hope to grasp thing better this time.

I'm sorry. I get excited when there is someone to talk Tolkien to!
Hugs,
Rach - who is going to be quiet now..

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 09:47:04 pm

I'm sorry. I get excited when there is someone to talk Tolkien to!


LOL ;D I know the feeling, Rach. That's how I felt when I first went online and discovered all the sites pertaining to LOTR....and all the wonderful people I've met because of it.

I absolutely love The Silmarillion. It's not particularly easy reading -- you have to really pay attention to what you're reading -- but definitely worth the time. It's the real beginning....the Genesis, so to speak.

And yes, you're correct about the Maiar and the wizards. If we make it through LOTR and The Hobbit, perhaps we should tackle The Silmarillion here.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 10, 2005, 09:51:58 pm

Well, enjoy my small contributions now because i know NOTHING about elves, and little about men. I am hung up on hobbits!LOL

You know, that would be great text for a siggy! LOL "I'm hung up on hobbits!" LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 10:02:04 pm

"Hung up on Hobbits" .....cute! *snort*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 10, 2005, 10:48:03 pm

Hung up on Hobbits, that is cute. I am a hobbit fan myself. :D

Story, that is fascinating that Gandalf was a friend of the hobbits long before Bilbo came into existance! I had no idea! How old is Gandalf at the time of LOTR?

Yeux, I see you have a new siggie that does not have Elijah on it. :o Deenan did a great job as usual. :) At the risk of sounding squeeish, Dom looks so cute when he has that serious look about him.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 10, 2005, 11:07:09 pm

[quote author=Rose link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=45#msg937286 date=1131680883]
Yeux, I see you have a new siggie that does not have Elijah on it. :o Deenan did a great job as usual. :) At the risk of sounding squeeish, Dom looks so cute when he has that serious look about him.[/quote]

Uhmm....Cristiel made this siggy (see thank you line underneath.) I found the avatar at a website another forum member, GrandTheftAuto, told me about.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 10, 2005, 11:12:42 pm

:-[ So sorry. I guess I need to be more observant. Cristiel did a beautiful job as usual! Sorry, Cristiel, when you read this!

Carina, I was going to comment on what you said earlier, too. I agree with you about the Gandalf of the movie being warmer...more grandfatherly even. So far I do prefer the Gandalf of the movie over all. I was speaking specifically about the Gandalf/Bilbo relationship, which I prefer in the book....if any of that makes sense. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 11, 2005, 03:02:24 am


on 1131682362, Rose wrote:
Carina, I was going to comment on what you said earlier, too. I agree with you about the Gandalf of the movie being warmer...more grandfatherly even. So far I do prefer the Gandalf of the movie over all. I was speaking specifically about the Gandalf/Bilbo relationship, which I prefer in the book....if any of that makes sense. :)


[color=Blue]Oh I see, yes of course, that does make a lot of sense. :D

I am enjoying all these chats about LOTR (books, movies, everything..!) so much, I've never had the chance to do this before. Most of the time, if I bring up Elijah or LOTR to people around me, they just roll their eyes, so I don't tend to talk about it, which is why I'm enjoying this all the more. :D :-*[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 11, 2005, 07:41:38 am

*hugs Carina.
The people who roll their eyes are missing so much. I feel so sorry for them!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 11, 2005, 09:49:08 am

[quote author=Carina link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=45#msg937341 date=1131696144]
I am enjoying all these chats about LOTR (books, movies, everything..!) so much, I've never had the chance to do this before. Most of the time, if I bring up Elijah or LOTR to people around me, they just roll thier eyes, so I don't tend to talk about it, which is why I'm enjoying this all the more. :D
[/quote]
Yep.....I've been on the receiving end of a lot of eye rolling, too, Carina. Even from my own husband. ::) However, he reserves his extra obvious eye rolling for when I talk about Elijah. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 11, 2005, 01:22:11 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=45#msg937538 date=1131720548]
Yep.....I've been on the receiving end of a lot of eye rolling, too, Carina. Even from my own husband. ::) However, he reserves his extra obvious eye rolling for when I talk about Elijah. :D
[/quote]

i just want to say Ditto. ;D

And, very interesting discussions going on. I am having a very busy day so I can't relaly comment much now, but I read everything and wanted to say how much I am enjoying this thread. And, I love "hung up on hobbits." :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 11, 2005, 01:42:08 pm

I am really enjoying this thread, too! And I have gotten the ::) in the past, too, so I don't even mention LOTR (nor Sean or Elijah) to anyone in my "real" life (except my husband and oldest son). There at not many homeschooling Moms and pastor's wives who are LOTR fans. ;D


Did any of you Tolkien experts catch my question asking how old Gandalf is during the time of FOTR? I would not find that in the Appendices.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 11, 2005, 01:57:57 pm

Its a difficult question, No one really knows, but he arrived in Middle Earth around TA 1000, the beginning of the Third Age.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 11, 2005, 02:18:58 pm

Thanks, Story. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 11, 2005, 03:00:09 pm

guys, i'm sorry. i'm really really behind in this reading....almost 3 chapters. a bunch of stuff came up with school and i havent found the time. i'll get cracking tonight and this weekend. just wanted to apologize lol

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 11, 2005, 08:26:29 pm

[color=Blue]Thanks so much for the responses to my post Yeux, Story, Rosie and Celebrian, it's comforting to know I'm not alone. :-*

Please don't worry about it Moonlit, this is all just for fun, I felt like you last week and just finished the chapters at midnight on Sunday ;D and by chance I did this week's reading Monday morning, so if you have time that's great and if you don't, that's ok too. ;)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 11, 2005, 08:41:20 pm

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=60#msg937634 date=1131739209]
guys, i'm sorry. i'm really really behind in this reading....almost 3 chapters. a bunch of stuff came up with school and i havent found the time. i'll get cracking tonight and this weekend. just wanted to apologize lol
[/quote]


Don't worry about it at all Moonlit! As Carina says, this is just for fun. This isn't school. No one is going to give you a bad report. :D Just read what you can and join us when you can. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 11, 2005, 09:13:48 pm

Moonlit Sky, I agree with Rose and Carina. Don't worry yourself about it....just have fun. *doesn't tell her there will be a test at the end* LOL, nope, just kidding. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 11, 2005, 09:17:47 pm

*groans* not another test! ;)

thanks guys. i assumed you wouldnt care, just thought i'd give you a heads up. i suppose i should have posted that comment in the original thread... ::) i'm so out of it tonight

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 11, 2005, 09:20:46 pm

Don't feel bad, you're not alone. I think at least half my posts should be in "the other thread." ::) For some reason, I don't stop to think about which thread I should be posting in. And everyone knows how easy it is to get off topic at A & F. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Joanie on November 11, 2005, 11:47:02 pm

Hello everyone! I have to say how much I am enjoying reading all these posts and what knowledgeable Tolkien folks we have here. I find all of this information fascinating. It's wonderful to be able to exchange ideas/comments on LOTR. I know how most of you feel, I'm in the same boat. I really don't have anyone to discuss LOTR with.....I get ::) too.

I always wondered how old Gandalf is in the trilogy. I'm chugging along with my reading. Hope to do some more when I get off here (if I don't fall asleep!).

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 12, 2005, 03:49:42 am

I'm so behind on this thread :-[ With boyfriend being home, I just don't spend a lot of time on A&F :-[ I am however keeping up with reading and I hope to join the discussion as of next week (boyfriend starts working again on Monday).

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 12, 2005, 11:26:27 am

Rose ,
Love love LOVE the new siggy!
I'm working on a new avatar myself...

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 12, 2005, 01:06:06 pm

At what time tomorrow is this thread open for discussion of the next three chapters? Just curious. ;D I have been getting a bit ahead, but not as much as I had planned I think. I'd like to get through a bit more before I get my next book discussion book on Thursday, so I'll have to get cracking again soon. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 12, 2005, 04:25:20 pm

[quote author=Cristiel link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=60#msg937866 date=1131785382]With boyfriend being home, I just don't spend a lot of time on A&F :-[
[/quote]

I don't blame you! ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 12, 2005, 05:00:59 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=60#msg937948 date=1131818766]
At what time tomorrow is this thread open for discussion of the next three chapters? Just curious. ;D I have been getting a bit ahead, but not as much as I had planned I think. I'd like to get through a bit more before I get my next book discussion book on Thursday, so I'll have to get cracking again soon. ;)
[/quote]

I think most people have read the second assignment by now so I have no problem with starting the discussion as of tomorrow morning. Is there someone who feels she needs a bit more time?

As I said, I'll try to participate in the discussion a bit more as I feel a bit bad about starting this and not being able to partake in the discussion. Though it seems that Storyteller did a great job - probably even a better job than I could have done - answering all your questions.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 12, 2005, 05:33:10 pm

ok guys, i've got a 2 chapters to read tonight and a chapter tomorrow and i'll be ready. (heh, i just realized thats the whole reading assignment ::) :-[) so go ahead and start, dont mind me. i'll join in when ready.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 12, 2005, 06:14:58 pm

*blush I'm sorry! I didn't realize there was a leader! Oh dear! I'll be quiet. I promise!

I love talking Tolkien so much that I get carried away. :(

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 12, 2005, 06:56:09 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=60#msg937935 date=1131812787]
Rose ,
Love love LOVE the new siggy!
I'm working on a new avatar myself...

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

Just here for a minute. We walk out the door in five minutes. But I wanted to say thanks, Rach. Though really the credit should go to Cristiel who made it for me. She was kind enough to make me a Sean siggie even though she is more of an Elijah fan. :D She does an excellent jobs with siggies as you can see.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 12, 2005, 09:04:41 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=75#msg938017 date=1131837298]
*blush I'm sorry! I didn't realize there was a leader! Oh dear! I'll be quiet. I promise!

I love talking Tolkien so much that I get carried away. :(

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

Please don't be sorry Rach! We have enjoyed your input and you obviously have a wealth of information. Thanks! :D

Cristiel - We would love to have you participate more, but we understand that you have other things to do right now. Join us when you can and no guilt when you can't, OK? ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 12, 2005, 09:13:12 pm

Just jump in whenever you can, Cristiel. We'll all be here chattering away. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Joanie on November 12, 2005, 10:42:35 pm

Cristiel, please don't feel badly. :-*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 13, 2005, 04:31:58 am

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=75#msg938017 date=1131837298]
*blush I'm sorry! I didn't realize there was a leader! Oh dear! I'll be quiet. I promise!

I love talking Tolkien so much that I get carried away. :(

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, you can say all you want. It's just that I made the schedule and I'm coordinating things a bit and now I feel bad for not participating in the discussion.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 13, 2005, 03:01:22 pm

Well, I hope I didn't say too much...

And don't feel badly for not being here. Real life DOES have a way of getting in the way what you really want to do! LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 13, 2005, 05:16:48 pm

So, are we allowed to talk about the next three chapters yet???

Well, I'm about to, so if you haven't read them you can decide to read or not. Consider this a "spoiler alert." ;)



My "dirty old lady" comment is that it's really a pity that PJ didn't film the scene when Frodo, Sam and Pippin take baths after arriving at Crickhollow and sing and splash. Wouldn't that have been a fun one to see? ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 13, 2005, 05:48:37 pm

all caught up!

i'm enjoying Tom Bombadil so far. i liked his song :D

the Old Forest reminds me of Fangorn. i like it, i wished they had put it in the movie.

i agree, they should have included that bath scene ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 13, 2005, 11:16:37 pm

Yes, the two forests are similar, except I believe the Old Forest is even older than Fangorn.

It seems to me such a waste that Frodo buys the house in Crickhollow, moves his personal belongings, then spends only one day and night there before setting off again. I assume he had expected to stay there longer? Agree? Disagree?

Yes, Celebrian......cute little Hobbitsies splashing around in the tub.

*nice vision ensues*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 14, 2005, 07:42:50 am

Yes, the original plan was to stay there a bit longer. The arrival of the Nazgul put paid to that idea. LOL

In regard to the events in the Old Forest, I wonder why you think the trees attacked Frodo, Merry and Pippin but not Sam?

About Farmer Maggot, in the HOME books, you see Frodo's playful side a bit more in regards to the good fellow. In an early version of the scene, Frodo is wearing the Ring when they arrive at his house and Frodo decides to get a bit of his own back by playing a trick on Maggot. He sneaks over and drinks Maggots beer (imagine seeing a beer mug lifted and emptied by nothing!LOL) hen throws the farmer's hat out the door. It's a funny scene!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 14, 2005, 07:45:23 am

[color=Blue]No worries Cristiel, don't feel bad :-*
Anytime you can join us, we'll enjoy reading what you have to say. :D

And Rach, I really enjoy your input. :D[/color]

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=75#msg938309 date=1131920208]
My "dirty old lady" comment is that it's really a pity that PJ didn't film the scene when Frodo, Sam and Pippin take baths after arriving at Crickhollow and sing and splash. Wouldn't that have been a fun one to see? ;D
[/quote]

Oh yeah, that would have been niiiiice!! ;D

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=75#msg938368 date=1131941797]
It seems to me such a waste that Frodo buys the house in Crickhollow, moves his personal belongings, then spends only one day and night there before setting off again. I assume he had expected to stay there longer? Agree? Disagree?[/quote]

[color=Blue]Yes I agree with you. :)

I feel bad for Frodo that he had hardly any time in his new home but I guess the whole point was to hide his comings and goings, wasn't it?[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 14, 2005, 10:25:15 am

I really enjoyed these chapters, even more than the first three (which I also enjoyed). I think the part about when he beat Frodo when he was a lad for stealing mushrooms and "sicked" the dogs on him, would make a great fanfic. I think it is sweet that Sam is suspicious of Farmer Maggot because he beat Frodo so many years before. If you want to be on Sam's good side, don't mess with Frodo! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 14, 2005, 11:58:56 am

I think Frodo intended to spend a little more time at Crickhollow than he did, but for the most part, I think Crickhollow was basically a "cover" because he was selling Bag End and wanted to have somewhere out of the way to be "moving to" so it was not obvious that he was leaving the Shire. It was certainly never intended as a real long-term residence. And, if he had really wanted to spend more time there, he could have left Hobbiton sooner, but Gandalf had indicated that he shouldn't wait to start any longer than he did, so he obviously planned to only be there briefly.

As for similarities between the Old Forest and Fangorn, PJ put some of the Old Forest events/words into the Fangorn scenes. When the tree swallows Merry and Pippin, it is Treebeard who speaks Tom Bombadil's lines and rescues them. So, he kind of put the Old Forest stuff in, just in a different context. As for why Old Man Willow got all the hobbits except Sam, on a surface level, I think it's because the three actually sat down leaning on the tree and Sam didn't. As for why he didn't - one possibility is his role as Frodo's servant/protector and him feeling like he shouldn't loll around there (because they obviously knew something was not right). Maybe there is something deeper about a difference with Sam or him being more cautious or suspicious of some things, but I'm not sure.

And, yes, Rose "If you want to be on Sam's good side, don't mess with Frodo!" I completely agree. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 14, 2005, 12:45:45 pm

I worded that badly. I'm sorry.

A better way of saying it might be why did Tolkien use Sam as the character that DIDN'T get attacked? he could have used any of the hobbits. Why pick Sam?

We will see more of this later, but just remember Sam's vocation. Sam is a gardener. Those of you that have read the book may remember what Galadriel calls him in Lothlorien. That's where I'm going with this.

THis is just a speculation, but Tolkien is a very economic writer. nothing is wasted. It's like LOST. Little things that seem to be random often mean something later on.

Tolkien was an avid and very early environmentalist. He hated the industrialization that he beleived was destroying the quality of rural life in England. The wanton destruction of nature is theme in
LOTR.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 14, 2005, 09:23:05 pm

Quote: In regard to the events in the Old Forest, I wonder why you think the trees attacked Frodo, Merry and Pippin but not Sam?

I'm sure it's because he is a gardener and more in tune with nature (trees) than the others.

Quote: This is just a speculation, but Tolkien is a very economic writer. nothing is wasted.

Absolutely true!

Quote: It's like LOST. Little things that seem to be random often mean something later on.

Like some of Frodo's dreams/visions, i.e., the figure on the top of a dark tower and a large bird flying in to pick him up off the tower. Frodo doesn't realize he's just seen the reason Gandalf is delayed.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 14, 2005, 09:30:41 pm

Ummm, yeah. That's all much more interesting and likely than anything I said. ;D I hadn't thought about the gardener part, but it sounds good to me.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 14, 2005, 09:35:41 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=90#msg938777 date=1132021385]

Like some of Frodo's dreams/visions, i.e., the figure on the top of a dark tower and a large bird flying in to pick him up off the tower. Frodo doesn't realize he's just seen the reason Gandalf is delayed.
[/quote]
oh wow, i completely forgot about that! :o

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 14, 2005, 10:14:48 pm

I confess I have read ahead so I skimmed the chapters again this afternoon. I agree with all of your points as to why Samwise was not attacked by Old Man Willow. Everything all of Celebrian, Story and everyone else said makes perfect sense to me. It would be interesting to know exactly what Tolkien had in mind.

I agree, Carina, I also felt kind of bad that Frodo did not have more time in his new home. And I am also still so disappointed that he had to sell Bag End.

I thought it was so sweet, funny and delightful that Pippin, Merry and Sam were "sneaking" around trying to help Frodo and discover what he was up to. I love this quote from Merry. It all depends on what you want. You can trust us to stick with you through thick and thin...to the bitter end. You can trust us to keep any secret of yours...closer than you keep it yourself. But you can not trust us to let you face your troubles alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.

Tom Bambadil is a mystery to me. Is he meant to be a mystery or am I too dumb to "get it?" "What" is he? Is he an Elf? I didn't think so but I could never figure out exactly who or what he is.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 14, 2005, 10:26:16 pm

I love that quote, too, Rose. It ranks right up there with "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us" and many that I love from ROTK.

I've always felt Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were personifications of Nature. They are magical more than human most of the time. It's almost like they were created purposely to help travelers through The Old Forest. And they don't like to leave it. Tom knew who a lot of the characters were......Strider, Gandalf....who had passed through The Old Forest. All the descriptions of their clothing is nature-like. Think about the descriptions of Goldberry's attire and Tom wears blue (sky), green (earth), yellow (sun), a feather in his hat (birds), etc. And their table reflects the bounty of Nature with all the endless food they serve.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 14, 2005, 10:43:36 pm

That makes a lot of sense, Yeux. From what I understand, Tolkien was a lover of nature so it would only make sense that he would have characters to personify nature.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 14, 2005, 11:13:42 pm

That's an interesting description of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. They are certainly rather mysterious and powerful and I like the idea of them as persoifications of nature. :D

And, that is a fantastic quote from Merry. A favorite for me too.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 15, 2005, 04:12:32 am

Okay, I haven't read as far as Old Man Willow yet (though I've read a whole chapter aloud just yesterday, I'm still behind) but I hope you don't mind me butting in. ;D

Concering Old Man Willow and why he's not attacking Sam:
I like all the reasons given so far. Certainly Sam being a gardener is more in touch with nature. But also Celebrian's oberservation that Sam was the only one standing and not lulling around, sounds very good to me.
I've quickly read the previous comments. Has anybody mentioned Sam's innocence as a reason yet? Sam is certainly the most innocent of the four hobbits (I always have to hold back my parental instincts when Sam is around ;D). Maybe that's also a reason why Old Man Willow didn't attack him. I can't help but think of a Mowgli-situation. In real life the wild creatures of the jungle would probably devour a child wandering in their territory, in a "fairy-tale" they don't because of its innocence. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 15, 2005, 07:55:54 am

Rose,
Tom Bombadil is SUPPOSED to be a mystery. Tolkine would never say exactly what Tom was. He said that life is full of mysteries and he wanted the story to have one, too! LOL Many scholars feel he is a Maia, or even one of the Valar. He is VERY much a representation of nature. You notice that the Ring seems to have no power over him. it doesn't make him invisible.

I have read a LOT of essaies speculating that Frodo had a bit of a crush on Goldberry. I'm not sure about that one! LOL

Good call on Frodo's dreams. Tolkien is heavily into prophetic dreams. You'll be seeing more of them.

hugs,
Rach

I wish they had covered the "conspiracy: in the movies! It is such an act of love!

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 15, 2005, 11:06:56 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=90#msg938986 date=1132059354]
Many scholars feel he is a Maia, or even one of the Valar. He is VERY much a representation of nature. You notice that the Ring seems to have no power over him. it doesn't make him invisible. [/quote]

Ah yes, I meant to bring that up. t\The fact that the ring didn't make him invisible was another reason I thought Tom might be a "personification" rather than an actual being. A Maia? Perhaps, but I don't think he's one of the Valar. IMHO

So what does that make Goldberry in your opinion?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 16, 2005, 03:45:35 am

I've always considered Tom Bombadil as one of the Maiar, though there is not really proof of that. But there are indications: he's very old and the Ring doesn't effect him. So he's clearly no mortal man.

I don't see how Tom could be a one of the Valar, they were all named by Tolkien (while the Maiar were not) and I don't think they took the body of a human being. Together with the Valar, the Maiar were part of the Ainur though the Maiar were considered less important than the Valar.

There is not a lot known about Goldberry except that she was the daughter of the river-people. I've never considered her as a Maia, I think she's just a woman.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 16, 2005, 06:26:25 am

I share the view that Tom and Goldberry are personifications of nature. And while Tom could very well be Maia or Valar, I feel a bit different about Goldberry. To me she's also like a personification of love or love of nature. I don't know why I think so and if it is at all reasonable. ???

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 16, 2005, 07:39:12 am

It certainly IS reasonable, Doremi. I think almost any speculation here is reasonable, since we are told so little. It's what the good professor WANTED us to do! LOL

What do I think about Goldberry? Well, that's an interesting point. Tyler, in The Tolkien Companion, calls her a "water sprite". Foster, on the other hand, calls her a woman. Duriez says her race is unclear, but that she represents the "hippie ideal of the 1960s". Now the last is hardly possible since the book came out in 1954! LOL But I think she's more than an ordinary mortal woman. I guess I lean more toward the "water sprite" side, that she is somehow a creature of nature itself.

I think the most important fact is that they both represent Tolkien's love of and respect for, nature.

Hugs,
Rach


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 16, 2005, 10:16:56 am

I feel like Goldberry must be something other than a mortal woman. She has a presence about her and her involvement with Tom Bombadil both indicate that she's not a regular human. I don't claim to have any good idea about what exactly she is, though.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 16, 2005, 11:47:28 am

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=90#msg939428 date=1132154216]
I feel like Goldberry must be something other than a mortal woman. She has a presence about her and her involvement with Tom Bombadil both indicate that she's not a regular human. I don't claim to have any good idea about what exactly she is, though.[/quote]

Something just ocurred to me. Maybe Tom and Goldberry are two sides of the same thing - love and respect for nature. Tom could be the divine aspect, while Goldberry could be the human aspect. 8)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Tigerlily1419 on November 16, 2005, 11:16:27 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=90#msg939428 date=1132154216]
I feel like Goldberry must be something other than a mortal woman. She has a presence about her and her involvement with Tom Bombadil both indicate that she's not a regular human. I don't claim to have any good idea about what exactly she is, though.
[/quote]
I agree. She just has so much prescence when she talks. Like when she said, "Speed now, fair guests! And hold to your purpose! North with the wind in the left eye and a blessing on your footsteps. Make haste while the Sun shines!" Just with a short quote like that reminds me of Galadriel's prescence in FotR.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 17, 2005, 04:18:01 am

I would like to throw in this quote to the discussion, when the hobbits meet Goldberry.


((SPOILER ALERT: It's from the very beginning of this week's chapters))




The hobbits looked at her in wonder; and she looked at each of them and smiled. 'Fair lady Goldberry!' said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange.

You know I feel like that when I spend time at a river or lake or the ocean. Any body of water, in fact. If you realize that we are of 80% water...

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 20, 2005, 05:28:57 pm

[color=Blue]Beautiful. :-*

I enjoy reading your discussions so much, I have never ever been able to discuss Tolkien's books, views and intentions before, and I have to say, it makes me really happy.

I also really love nature, and that's why so many things I read on these pages and in Lord of the Rings are so close to my heart. :D

I am so sorry for not having visited this thread for the past couple of days, my week has gone by so fast and the weekend went even faster. :o

I admit that I did not manage to read anything else but my law course books this week but I am going to catch up next week. Promise. ;)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 20, 2005, 07:23:40 pm

gosh...where did this week go? i've gotten so far behind. meh, i've got some crazy reading to do tonight. seems as though we are all getting behind ::)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 20, 2005, 07:33:13 pm

Well, you just pop in and join us whenever you can, Carina. Your university work should, of course, come first.

Today I read an article in the Nov. 21st issue of The New Yorker about C. S. Lewis (The Chronicles of Narnia) who was a good friend of Tolkien. There were several mentions of Tolkien in the article and I thought this one was worth quoting. It doesn't have to do with the chapters we're currently discussing, but I'll never remember I have it if I wait until we're at the end of ROTK.

"Tolkien hated the Narnia books, despite Lewis's avid sponsorship of Tolkien's own mythology, because he hated to see an imagination constrained by the allegorical impulse. Though Tolkien was certainly a devout Catholic, there is no way in which The Lord of the Rings is a Christian book, much less a Catholic allegory. The Blessed Land across the sea is a retreat for the already immortal, not, except for Frodo, a reward for the afflicted; dead is dead. The pathos of Aragorn and Arwen's marriage is that, after Aragorn's death, they will never meet again, in Valinor or elsewhere. It is the modernity of the existential arrangement, in tension with the archaicism of the material culture, that makes Tolkien's myth haunting."

It's on to a discussion of chapters 7, 8 and 9 for this week. Everyone still with us? 8)



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 20, 2005, 09:28:22 pm

I'm actually a little ahead in FOTR which I did on purpose because I got The Kite Runner Thursday for my next in-person book discussion and I'm reading that at the moment.

And, just to keep up my dirty-old-lady theme ;D there is another great scene in Chapter 8 for the R-rated version of the movies, after Tom Bombadil saves them from the barrow-wight and tells them to run naked in the grass while he goes and brings the ponies back. Too bad that wasn't in there. ;D

And, then of course there is Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony. That would have been fun to see. And, it is quite an expanded version of the "Hey Diddle Diddle" I've always heard. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on November 21, 2005, 03:40:31 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941309 date=1132533193]
Well, you just pop in and join us whenever you can, Carina. Your university work should, of course, come first.[/quote]

[color=Blue]Thank you Yeux. :-*
By the way, I'm really impressed, I had no idea you were such a Tolkien/LOTR expert. :D[/color]

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941334 date=1132540102]
And, just to keep up my dirty-old-lady theme ;D there is another great scene in Chapter 8 for the R-rated version of the movies, after Tom Bombadil saves them from the barrow-wight and tells them to run naked in the grass while he goes and brings the ponies back. Too bad that wasn't in there. ;D [/quote]

A huge oversight on PJ's part!! ;D ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 21, 2005, 05:50:42 pm

Um, yeah, what Yeux said about school. Of course. ;D

And, you know, PJ missed a bunch of really great scenes. And, it's really too bad. ;D

OK, I also thought maybe I should post something a little more meaningful about these chapters. So, I was looking back at the dreams the hobbits (except Sam) had at Tom Bambadil's house. Frodo's has him seeing Gandalf stuck on the tower at Isengard, but also mentions "Suddenly, a shoadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon." Sounds like the first hint of the fell beasts (did we already discuss that? I feel now like someone already mentioned that).

Pippin's seems to be related to his time in Old Man Willow and foreshadowing the Ents with "twig-fingers." But, what about Merry's which is related to bogs and drowning? Certainly Frodo has drowning issues at the Gates of Moria and Dead Marshes, but is there something foreshadowed for Merry here too? If so, it is not coming to me at the moment.

OK. Now I'm feeling like that wasn't all that meaningful and maybe I'm repeating things and/or being dense. But, I'm going to leave it in the interest of possibly inspiring discussion, whether what I said makes sense or not. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 22, 2005, 03:23:38 am

Great idea, Celebrian! I wanted to say something about the dreams as well.

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941634 date=1132613442]
Frodo's has him seeing Gandalf stuck on the tower at Isengard, but also mentions "Suddenly, a shoadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon." Sounds like the first hint of the fell beasts (did we already discuss that? I feel now like someone already mentioned that).[/quote]

Funny. I rather thought it was Gwaihir? ???

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941634 date=1132613442]
Pippin's seems to be related to his time in Old Man Willow and foreshadowing the Ents with "twig-fingers." [/quote]

Good point, I think so, too.

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941634 date=1132613442]
But, what about Merry's which is related to bogs and drowning? Certainly Frodo has drowning issues at the Gates of Moria and Dead Marshes, but is there something foreshadowed for Merry here too? If so, it is not coming to me at the moment.[/quote]

Hmmm... maybe it's not foreshadowing, but the primal hobbit fear of water welling up. Merry as a bucklander is not much afraid of water, I guess. But a dangerous journey lies ahead of them and maybe this triggers fears long forgotten. :(


Another observation: again (after Old Man Willow) Sam is different. He is sleeping like a log while the other hobbits are having uneasy dreams. Any suggestions why? :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 22, 2005, 01:27:34 pm

[quote author=doremi77 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941753 date=1132647818]
Funny. I rather thought it was Gwaihir? ???
[/quote]

Hmmm. You know I just reread it. And, I had separated the shadow sentence from the following ones, but now I think you're right. OOPS! In the following sentences it is clear that Gandalf is being rescued by Gwaihir.

[quote]
Hmmm... maybe it's not foreshadowing, but the primal hobbit fear of water welling up. Merry as a bucklander is not much afraid of water, I guess. But a dangerous journey lies ahead of them and maybe this triggers fears long forgotten. :([/quote]

Sounds like a good explanation to me. I just thought since the others had roots in events in the story, then maybe Merry's would too.


[quote]Another observation: again (after Old Man Willow) Sam is different. He is sleeping like a log while the other hobbits are having uneasy dreams. Any suggestions why? :)
[/quote]

Yes, Sam is different. Although in a different way, so is Frodo. He is seeing things happening to Gandalf so there is sort of a link between the two of them. Pippin's dream I think is more personal and maybe Merry's too. Not sure why Sam didn't have a bad dream, but maybe it is related to his gardening and relationship with nature and being at Tom Bombadil and Goldberry's house as a representation of nature? I might be stretching here. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: nuke33 on November 22, 2005, 03:41:14 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941334 date=1132540102]
I'm actually a little ahead in FOTR which I did on purpose because I got The Kite Runner Thursday for my next in-person book discussion and I'm reading that at the moment.

[/quote]

I just finished Kite Runner. What an incredible book. I hope you enjoy it :)

I actually just finished FOTR as well. Sorry, I'm a very fast reader.
It was a different experience reading it after seeing the movie. I forgot how it reads more like a history then a fictional story.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 22, 2005, 04:47:31 pm

[quote author=nuke33 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg942047 date=1132692074]

I just finished Kite Runner. What an incredible book. I hope you enjoy it :)

I actually just finished FOTR as well. Sorry, I'm a very fast reader.
It was a different experience reading it after seeing the movie. I forgot how it reads more like a history then a fictional story.
[/quote]

I am enjoying Kite Runner, but it's making me so sad (I'm about 100 pages in so far). It certainly is interesting and a good read.

And, I agree, FOTR does read like a history. That's one of the great things about LOTR and the fact that there is so much additional information about the world where it takes place.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on November 22, 2005, 05:02:49 pm

[quote author=doremi77 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941753 date=1132647818]
Great idea, Celebrian! I wanted to say something about the dreams as well.

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941634 date=1132613442]
Frodo's has him seeing Gandalf stuck on the tower at Isengard, but also mentions "Suddenly, a shoadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon." Sounds like the first hint of the fell beasts (did we already discuss that? I feel now like someone already mentioned that).[/quote]

Funny. I rather thought it was Gwaihir? ???
[/quote]

Yeah, me too. I've never even thought about the Nazgul to be honest. Also, the timing seems to fit with Gandalf being rescued by Gwaihir.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 23, 2005, 07:27:19 pm

[quote author=doremi77 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941753 date=1132647818]



Another observation: again (after Old Man Willow) Sam is different. He is sleeping like a log while the other hobbits are having uneasy dreams. Any suggestions why? :)
[/quote]

I agree with everyone thoughts on this. I also think it is because Sam has such a simple (I don't mean this in a bad way), trusting personality. He seems to have inner peace in spite of outward turmoil. It will be interesting to see if this continues.

I agree that FOTR does read like history. I have to admit that I occasionally have to remind myself that it is fiction. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Seven on November 24, 2005, 12:58:41 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941309 date=1132533193]
"The pathos of Aragorn and Arwen's marriage is that, after Aragorn's death, they will never meet again, in Valinor or elsewhere." [/quote]

Unless I'm mistaken, since Arwen chose mortality, she will end up where Aragorn does; his last line seems to confirm this. The pathos is that she will never encounter her mother, father, or other friends and relatives again.

Regarding Goldberry, I think she is supposed to be some kind of natural sprite, like a water nymph. She's referred to in the "Tolkien Reader" as the daughter of the River-woman of the Withywindle.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 24, 2005, 11:57:35 pm

[quote author=Seven link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg943152 date=1132855121]
[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=105#msg941309 date=1132533193]
"The pathos of Aragorn and Arwen's marriage is that, after Aragorn's death, they will never meet again, in Valinor or elsewhere." [/quote]

Unless I'm mistaken, since Arwen chose mortality, she will end up where Aragorn does; his last line seems to confirm this. The pathos is that she will never encounter her mother, father, or other friends and relatives again. [/quote]

Right, by choosing mortality, she will die eventually. And when she does, she'll be dead....just like Aragorn. That's certainly pathos.....along with never seeing any of her immortal relatives or friends again.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 25, 2005, 05:47:34 pm

Whatever you believe about death in reality, these are just books and in a book, the reality can be whatever the writer, and his or her muse, decides it is.

I am reading the Silm on my board and we JUST read what Tolkien said about the afterlife. Tolkien said that elves don't understand what happens to mortals when they die, but he certainly indicated that their post death fates are not the same. Mortals, the Second Born of Iluvatar (Tolkien's term for God), are not "bound to the circles of the world." They die, according to Tolkien who is creating this of course, and pass beyond this world. He certainly indicates that elves do not. This death is in fact, a gift, as elves grow constantly more sorrowful with age and live to see everything they have created wither and die.

Now, the entire reason Arwen has this choice is that she is HalfElven, she is part mortal. Only to the Halfelven is given a choice of life or death. Your normal everyday elf has no choice.

If the Halfelven have a different afterlife, Tolkien never says that I have seen, so I think it's up to the reader to decide. I have always thought that while I believe DEVOUTLY in canon, if Tolkien doesn't expressly say differently, its the reader's choice.

But if Arwen CAN follow Aragorn to the same afterlife, I think it would be more because she is mortal, than because she is elf kind.

Just my thoughts, of course.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 25, 2005, 05:55:18 pm

I am really not an expert here. Many of you obviously know far more than I do and I don't even remember exactly where I read this or the details. It may have been on Green Books at TORn, but I'm not at all sure.

Anyway, death was actually referred to as the Gift to Men. I thought that at least one possibility was that after Men die they go somewhere other than the world (Middle-Earth and the Undying Lands and whatever else may be there). Maybe to a version of "heaven" where they would be with Eru? Not sure about that. But, there was some idea that Aragorn and Arwen would be reunited somewhere else for eternity after their deaths on ME.

I don't think I'm hallucinating about that, but does anyone else remember anything similar?

I was typing while you posted Rach. That is certainly part of what I was thinking of, but you clearly know much more about this. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 25, 2005, 06:38:31 pm

I haven't read the Green Books, Celebrian, but I'm sure you're right! Arwen has mortal blood and has chosen to BE mortal. So there is every possiblity that she can go "beyond the circles of the world" to join Aragorn. An elf NOT halfelven, like say Legolas, has no choice int he matter. He can't choose to be mortal.

In the movie, you see confusion on Legolas' face when a member of the Fellowship dies. I think PJ may have done that because the elves have no understanding of mortal afterlife. Again, that's just my thought, but it's interesting.

And you are right about the "gift" of death. It was considered a GOOD thing that Iluvatar did for his second born. At least, it was until Morgoth, Sauron's master and mentor, used his wiley tongue to convince the Numenoreans differently.

The whole bit about elves and men in the Silm is interesting because it says that elves have more bliss and contentment in ME and create more beauty. However, mortals have more freewill, more choices and chances to shape their own lives.

Fascinating stuff, when you think about it.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 26, 2005, 08:51:14 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg943763 date=1132958854]
Now, the entire reason Arwen has this choice is that she is HalfElven, she is part mortal. Only to the Halfelven is given a choice of life or death. Your normal everyday elf has no choice. [/quote]

Oh, yes....I should have mentioned that in my post. Sorry.


Quote:
But if Arwen CAN follow Aragorn to the same afterlife, I think it would be more because she is mortal, than because she is elf kind.


The race of men evidently believed in some form of afterlife. When he's dying, Theoden talks about facing his ancestors without shame.

[quote]And you are right about the "gift" of death. It was considered a GOOD thing that Iluvatar did for his second born. At least, it was until Morgoth, Sauron's master and mentor, used his wiley tongue to convince the Numenoreans differently.

The whole bit about elves and men in the Silm is interesting because it says that elves have more bliss and contentment in ME and create more beauty. However, mortals have more freewill, more choices and chances to shape their own lives.[/quote]

I found the concept of death being a gift ("The Silmarillion") a very interesting one.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 26, 2005, 09:25:45 pm

Men probably believed in afterlife because Tolkien did. But he does present it beautifully, don't you think?

In an aside, dwarves believed they would have an after life as well, but elves believed that dwarves would just return to the soil. One wonders if this dichotomy doesn't say something about the probelms between these two races, doesn't it?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 26, 2005, 09:50:36 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg944162 date=1133058345]
In an aside, dwarves believed they would have an after life as well, but elves believed that dwarves would just return to the soil. One wonders if this dichotomy doesn't say something about the probelms between these two races, doesn't it?
[/quote]

That is really interesting, Rach. I don't think I had heard that before, but it certainly could cause problems, couldn't it?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 26, 2005, 10:02:57 pm

ah, its good to be caught up.

i really like Tolkein's indepth description. i was home alone when reading those few chapters and was literally scared and hadd to keep looking over my shoulder and kept imagining shadows dancing on my walls. i could also feel the icy cold that he described about Frodo's wound. *shivers*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: elijahwoodfans1413 on November 27, 2005, 10:57:23 am

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg944173 date=1133060577]
ah, its good to be caught up.

i really like Tolkein's indepth description. i was home alone when reading those few chapters and was literally scared and hadd to keep looking over my shoulder and kept imagining shadows dancing on my walls. i could also feel the icy cold that he described about Frodo's wound. *shivers*

[/quote]

I have to just the same thing, I have a tree right outside my bedroom window, so it casts shadows on my walls, and I was so frightened that something would come and get me while I was reading. ::)
I think Merry is quite different in the book, what du you think?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 27, 2005, 01:54:57 pm

Merry does seem quite a bit more mature and serious in the book than in the movie (at least the early part of the movie trilogy).

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 27, 2005, 05:51:44 pm

I agree. And Pippin isn't as much of a goof-off in the books either. He does make some rather stupid mistakes, but he's not silly.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 27, 2005, 07:48:42 pm

i agree, i dont think Merry seemed the same in the books as in the movies, but i do think Pippin is very much the same. he's so cute, i think he's always been my favorite hobbit, and the book makes me like him more. i read ahead a bit and theres a quote coming up that made me laugh out loud. maybe i'll post it a bit later...dont want to spoil anyone's moment ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: mayadeprei on November 28, 2005, 03:19:35 am

Hi there,

you maybe noticed I haven't posted in this thread yet, that's because I can't keep up the reading. It's too busy :'(. I would really like to discuss with you guys...

Hope you are all enjoying the reading!

:-*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 28, 2005, 07:56:09 am

Book-Merry is my second favorite character! I LOVE his sharp mind and especially his organizational skills, this coming from someone who has NONE! LOL

I hated that the movie DIDN'T go into the loving conspiracy. It said so much about Merry and Pippin and let you know that Sam wasn' just an eavesdropper.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 28, 2005, 07:56:17 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg944961 date=1133182569]
I hated that the movie DIDN'T go into the loving conspiracy. It said so much about Merry and Pippin and let you know that Sam wasn' just an eavesdropper. [/quote]

Sam portrayed as an eavesdropper bothered me, too. I wonder if including the "loving conspiracy" in the film was even considered.

Artanis -- I love your kittens siggy. Adorable. (Big cat lover here.)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 28, 2005, 08:43:58 pm

It would have been nice to include the conspiracy because it would have served several purposes: showing Sam was not just an eavesdropper (although we have to admit that he was eavesdropping), showing the strength of the relationship between Frodo and both Merry and Pippin, showing that Merry and Pippin were not simply young, playful guys who went on the journey as sort of an accident from running into Frodo and Sam (literally), but actually planned to go because of their deep feelings for Frodo and would have shown some planning and packing and such. But, because the whole timeframe was so compressed in the film (understandably so), it didn't make sense to include any of that really. Too much other stuff and not enough time for everything.

But, it is also kind of fun to have diffferences between the book and the film to talk about. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on November 28, 2005, 10:14:14 pm

Just a quick note to let all of you know that I have not dropped out of the reading club! Our new "good" computer quit working so I am using our old computer. The problem is that when we got our new computer, my husband loaded all kinds of new games on our old one (ones that I had not let him put on it before so it would not slow it down even more. ;D) so now it is even slower than usual. As a mother of five, I can't take the time it now takes me to visit all my favorite threads every day. :-\ So I will only be popping in once in a while. But I will continue to read the books and enjoy them "with" you, even if I can't comment often.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 29, 2005, 01:00:56 am

......But, it is also kind of fun to have diffferences between the book and the film to talk about.


Indeed it is, Celebrian. 8)


Return to us as soon as you can, Rose. And be sure to call your computer friend the minute he comes back from his trip.




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Seven on November 29, 2005, 04:00:04 am

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=120#msg944162 date=1133058345]
Men probably believed in afterlife because Tolkien did. But he does present it beautifully, don't you think?

In an aside, dwarves believed they would have an after life as well, but elves believed that dwarves would just return to the soil. One wonders if this dichotomy doesn't say something about the probelms between these two races, doesn't it?

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

I could imagine the elves developing a bit of a superiority complex about all that.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: mayadeprei on November 29, 2005, 04:51:44 am


Quote:
Artanis -- I love your kittens siggy. Adorable. (Big cat lover here.)


Thanks, that's so sweet :-*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 29, 2005, 05:07:03 am

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg945460 date=1133228638]
It would have been nice to include the conspiracy because it would have served several purposes: showing Sam was not just an eavesdropper (although we have to admit that he was eavesdropping), showing the strength of the relationship between Frodo and both Merry and Pippin, showing that Merry and Pippin were not simply young, playful guys who went on the journey as sort of an accident from running into Frodo and Sam (literally), but actually planned to go because of their deep feelings for Frodo and would have shown some planning and packing and such. But, because the whole timeframe was so compressed in the film (understandably so), it didn't make sense to include any of that really. Too much other stuff and not enough time for everything.

But, it is also kind of fun to have diffferences between the book and the film to talk about. ;)[/quote]

IMHO the movie made up for this at the end when making Merry and Pippin distract the orcs to help Frodo. The looks on their faces when they had their good-bye told of it all. :'(

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 29, 2005, 12:09:33 pm

I agree, doremi, at the end you do see more of the depth of feelings between the hobbits. But, I think it's actually a little different than showing the conspiaracy at the beginning would have been. Even if they had not been as close to begin with, they all would have been close by the end of the film after all they'd been through together on the journey.

And, in terms of something to mention from the three chapters we all should have finished recently:

I love Sam's song in Flight to the Ford. And, afterwards when Pippin says he'd never heard the words and Frodo says "Its out of his own head, of course. I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!"

This does show some of Sam's talent. And, although Merry and Pippin end up acting more formally as "warriors" Sam certainly has his moments (like charging into the Tower at Cirith Ungol to save Frodo from the Orcs).

And, I still think it's a pity that they had Arwen save Frodo heading to the ford (although I do understand why they did it in the film), because Frodo's moment at the Ford is a great one and really shows his strength against the evil of the ring:

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"

I would have liked to see Elijah say those lines and stare down the Riders at the Ford. And, of course it would have been cool to actually see Glorfindel as "a shining figure of white light" but I suppose we later see Gandalf as the White Rider saving Faramir and his men during the retreat from osgiliath, so that will have to do.

I think I may be rambing, so I'll stop now, but I thought it would be good to get some discussion on these three chapters going.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 29, 2005, 03:05:12 pm

i loved the Flight to the Ford chapter. the only thing i wouldve liked to see was the reactions of the hobbits and Strider at those moments. yes we hear about through Gandalf, but its not the same as if JRR was telling us. it wouldve been worded differently and i wouldve been able to picture their faces a bit better. oh well, i'll take what i'm given ;)

i like Glorfindil (sp?) he's a neat character. i would like to see more of him, but my guess is his role in the series is over...

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 29, 2005, 03:49:47 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg945875 date=1133284173]
I agree, doremi, at the end you do see more of the depth of feelings between the hobbits. But, I think it's actually a little different than showing the conspiaracy at the beginning would have been. Even if they had not been as close to begin with, they all would have been close by the end of the film after all they'd been through together on the journey.[/quote]

You're right, Celebrian. But knowing the book before the movies I could never watch them without certain things set in my mind which I clearly remembered from the book, like the relationship between the hobbits. For me it was there even if it wasn't shown. And the alterations only did not bug me more, because I had not read the book right before the movies. :) I even liked some of them in their own way.

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg945875 date=1133284173]
I love Sam's song in Flight to the Ford. And, afterwards when Pippin says he'd never heard the words and Frodo says "Its out of his own head, of course. I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!" [/quote]

:D I love that comment, too (*sigh* everytime I read the book I fall again :-[). But the song was a pain to read aloud for a non-native speaker like me. I did not find the right flow or rythm of it. ::)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 29, 2005, 04:32:38 pm

[quote author=doremi77 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg946011 date=1133297387]

You're right, Celebrian. But knowing the book before the movies I could never watch them without certain things set in my mind which I clearly remembered from the book, like the relationship between the hobbits. For me it was there even if it wasn't shown. And the alterations only did not bug me more, because I had not read the book right before the movies. :) I even liked some of them in their own way.

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg945875 date=1133284173]
I love Sam's song in Flight to the Ford. And, afterwards when Pippin says he'd never heard the words and Frodo says "Its out of his own head, of course. I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!" [/quote]

:D I love that comment, too (*sigh* everytime I read the book I fall again :-[). But the song was a pain to read aloud for a non-native speaker like me. I did not find the right flow or rythm of it. ::)
[/quote]

Don't feel bad. I am a native English speaker and I couldn't figure out the rhythm or flow of it either. I didn't try to read it outloud though, so I didn't have to worry about it much. It would be fun to have all the tunes and hear all the songs as they are meant to be sung. Oh, and I also like some of the changes in their own right. There are some things that just don't translate well to screen and some things that work very well there.

I had read the books many years before seeing the movie, but in all honesty, it was less than a year after my twins were born (I was actually in the hospital in preterm labor at the time FOTR premiered and didn't see it until about a year later on DVD), I was exhausted and I remembered almost nothing about the books. I remembered Frodo, Bilbo and that there was at least one other hobbit, Gandalf and Strider and that was about it. :-[ *hides* I didn't even remember that the ring made you invisible. Sad, isn't it? But, I've made up for it since. 8) And, I saw TTT and ROTK in the theater, TTT within a week or 2 of seeing FOTR actually. So, watching it was like seeing something entirely new. Then, I reread the books in early 2004 after getting them for Christmas '03, including the appendices and then read the Silmarillion. And, now I am reading the trilogy for the third time. :D

That was probably more than anyone wanted to know . . . ::)

Moonlit Sky - I agree. It would have been interesting to hear about the others at the ford more directly, but Tolkien's style seems to include quite a bit told after the fact. As someone has commented (maybe not here), that is generally discouraged by editors as a poor way to tell a story and maintain audience interest, but it certainly managed to work for Tolkien. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on November 29, 2005, 04:42:48 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg946036 date=1133299958]
That was probably more than anyone wanted to know . . . ::)[/quote]

No, that was interesting. :) I'm reading it for the fifth time now. First time English. That equals once every 2.8 years. ;D

And I'm reading it aloud to my boyfriend. Just because. Now he constantly tells me what a good storyreader I am. 8)

BTW it is about time to read! I'm off to keep up! ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 29, 2005, 05:47:05 pm

first time reader :-[

i think i want to read it every year now. i'll keep these bookmarks i made and keep on schedule every year. sounds like a plan....who's with me?! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on November 29, 2005, 09:12:23 pm

[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg946063 date=1133304425]
first time reader :-[

i think i want to read it every year now. i'll keep these bookmarks i made and keep on schedule every year. sounds like a plan....who's with me?! :D
[/quote]

LOL Well, Christopher Lee has read LOTR every year.....like forever. And I think Rose said Storyteller reads it every year. Am I correct, Storyteller? I love LOTR, but there are so many wonderful books waiting to be read that I think I'll keep moving on.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on November 30, 2005, 06:17:32 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg946102 date=1133316743]
[quote author=Moonlit Sky link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=135#msg946063 date=1133304425]
first time reader :-[

i think i want to read it every year now. i'll keep these bookmarks i made and keep on schedule every year. sounds like a plan....who's with me?! :D
[/quote]

LOL Well, Christopher Lee has read LOTR every year.....like forever. And I think Rose said Storyteller reads it every year. Am I correct, Storyteller? I love LOTR, but there are so many wonderful books waiting to be read that I think I'll keep moving on.
[/quote]
yeah, Christopher Lee is who i got the idea from. i think it sounds like fun. me and my friends read the Harry Potter series every summer, so this sounds like the perfect winter series to start up.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 30, 2005, 06:37:18 pm

Yes, I read it every year and have since I was 12 years old. Some years I have read it more than once, so I'm figuring I've read it about 40 times. And I still find new things every time. I think that says a lot about how well its written.


Quote:
By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"

Yes! I wanted to hear Elijah say that, too. Frodo was strong in the beginning, before the Burden weakened him. This line gives you some idea of just how strong. It's one of my favorite Frodo lines.


Quote:
First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!"


This line foreshadows so much of what happens to Sam on the quest! He doesn't become a wizard, but he he gains SO MUCH wisdom, and he CERTAINLY becomes a warrior!

There is a fun little aside here. DO you guys know what Frodo and Sam's names mean?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 30, 2005, 09:17:31 pm

I have no idea what Frodo and Sam's names mean. Although Samwise, sounds like something that should indicate a certain wisdom, even if it is not obvious at the beginning.

I have a more Silmarillion-related question, but it came up with our discussion of death versus immortality. Is there a difference between Eru and Illuvatar (sp?) or are they two names for the same . . . being? entity? (whatever is the appropriate term?)

I think re-reading the series yearly sounds like a lovely idea in theory, but I have enough trouble reading things I really want to read as it is. If I tried to read a long-ish series each year in addition, I'd never be able to manage it. Although, I did read the series in early 2004 and I'm reading it now in 2005, so I've gotten a bit of a start. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 30, 2005, 10:12:33 pm

Eru and Iluvatar are both God. Iluvatar is his name in Aman and Eru is his ME name.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on November 30, 2005, 10:32:29 pm

Thanks Rach. :D I figured it was something like that. But, it is nice to have experts around here to ask. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on November 30, 2005, 11:02:04 pm

I'm no expert! I wish I was! i've just love talking about it WAY too much! LOL

I just realized I forgot to tell you what the names mean! Frodo is from, I think its Norwegian, "frod" which means "wise by experience". A very apt name for the ringbearer. Frodo is wise from the beginning, elevated, as Tolkien puts it.

Sam's name fools everyone, though I don't think Tolkien intended that. He says that "wise" means just that, and "sam" means "half". Now people have interrpreted this as meaning "halfwit" and "stupid" which doesn't jive with Tolkien's description of Sam as making the biggest change, having evolved the most on the quest.

If you read "The Peoples of Middle Earth", one of the HOME series books, this is explained. Tolkien is talking about Sam's name, and though he used a different word for it there (he was always changing names. Frodo was originally BINGO, which is just wrong!LOL) but the meaning is exactly the same. He described the first sylable of Sam's name as meaning "half, almost".

It isn't half like "not enough". It's half like "becoming". Samwise means "he who becomes wise", a name that goes perfectly with the character who leaves a good, but naive hobbit but returns a wise, experinced leader.

I love the way Tolkein does this so appropriately! Merry's name, Kalimac in Hobbitish, mans just what is sounds like "happy". Peregin means a wanderer, again, very appropriate.

Hope I haven't bored you.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 01, 2005, 12:20:52 am

ooooooh.....we're getting into some heavy stuff here. :D

I'm not sure where I read this....I think it was in a discussion at TORn with Tehanu, but it was said that the name Samwise was really a name given to him tongue in cheek because his family didn't consider him "wise" at all, but rather a bit slow.

Have you run across this anywhere, Storyteller?


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 01, 2005, 07:25:49 am

I've seen it called tongue-in-cheek, but not by his family. I've heard it was because of Tolkein's sense of humor, that he named him "halfwit" because that is what the rest of ME thought he was, when actually he was quite shrewd and very brave.

I think I would advise those people to go read what Tolkien himself has to say about the name! LOL As far as I'm concerned, he's the boss when it comes to his books.

That's what I love about the HOME books. They are so full of what TOLKIEN meant things to be, it's almost like getting to talk to him about his work.

There is something I SO want to say here and can't because it's a spoiler! ACK! LOL * bites tongue.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 01, 2005, 05:48:11 pm

Rach - You are an expert compared to me and full of interesting information. :D Very interesting stuff about the names. Thanks for sharing that. You too Yeux!

Rach - If you have a spoiler that you can't wait to share, please feel free to PM me. I have read the books before and would be interested in what you want to say. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on December 01, 2005, 05:51:30 pm

i'd just like to say thanks to all of you who have read the book before for not spoiling anything. i know in any thread when people put up those spoiler warnings, well, i have absolutely no will-power and end up reading it anyways. ::) it is much appreciated

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on December 02, 2005, 04:27:15 pm

I've read LOTR every year as well since I was 14. So I'm on my 10th or 11th time right now. I'm constantly reading something from Tolkien.

Storyteller, have you read the complete HOME collection? I have them all but have only read 4 or 5 until now.

Recently, I re-read The Sil and I start to get more and more fascinated by that. Since I was home sick all week, I started reading "The book of lost tales" and I love it.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 02, 2005, 04:35:21 pm


Quote:
Storyteller, have you read the complete HOME collection? I have them all but have only read 4 or 5 until now.



Oh no! I have read parts of all of them but I only own four of them! I'm working on one now but since I am also reading the Silm again, it is taking awhile.


Ok I correct myself. I own six of them. I was only counting the four that are actually about the writing of LOTR and The Peoples of Middle Earth. Those are the ones I've read. I have several others but haven't had the time to read them yet. I spend too much time reading LOTR! LOL

I have this terrible habit of parking myself on the floor of a book store in the middle of the aisle and reading a book. Can't tell you how many LOTR books I've read that way! LOL I often look in the index for reference pages about "Sam", since he's my favorite character. I've probably read ALL the referneces to him in ALL of the HOME books, but not I have yet to finish all of them completely.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 02, 2005, 04:39:14 pm

A stupid question (since I consider myself a Tolkien fan ::)), what are the HOME books? I've never heard of them. :(

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 02, 2005, 04:42:21 pm

Home stands for The History of Middle Earth. They were published after Tolkien's death by his son, Christopher, and tell about how he wrote the books. The ones I have read include early versions of LOTR.

They can be a bit confusing because you have to skip around to footnotes that Christopher added.

DOn't get me started on Christopher. It isn't pretty.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on December 02, 2005, 04:42:40 pm

My boyfriend gave me the whole HOME collection as a present last year and I feel a bit guilty that I haven't read them all yet. It's such a beautiful set of books. We have a pretty large collection of Tolkien books at the moment and I just love to open the closet and just look at them. I know, I'm weird ;D

I love to go to bookstores to check what books they have. Unfortunately, I live in a stupid country like Belgium and most books they have are also standing in my book closet. I guess the huge bookstores in the UK and USA should be like paradise for me 8)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 02, 2005, 04:45:36 pm

How nice of him to give you that! In all my years of reading and loving Tolkien, I have never owned a hardbacked copy. I want the one illustrated by Allan Lee for Christmas, but I don't expect to get it. I may buy it for myself if I get Christmas money.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 02, 2005, 04:47:21 pm

Oh wow! Thanks for the info. I only have the maps/atlas (Karen Wynn-Fonstadt, I think) and an encyclopedia. The Sil, of course. And the Lost Tales 1 and 2.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on December 02, 2005, 04:55:34 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=150#msg947731 date=1133559936]
How nice of him to give you that! In all my years of reading and loving Tolkien, I have never owned a hardbacked copy. I want the one illustrated by Allan Lee for Christmas, but I don't expect to get it. I may buy it for myself if I get Christmas money.

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

You mean the one volume edition illustrated by Allan Lee? We currently have "The Hobbit" with Allan Lee's illustrations but we bought LOTR just yesterday on ebay. If I would have bought it in the shop, it would have cost 80€, now I payed half (including the shipping). So I'd recommend you to check out ebay.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 02, 2005, 04:59:02 pm

Yes, that's the one I mean. I'll be sure and look there. I'll have to order it any way since the ONE bookstore we have doesn't carry it.

Thanks for telling me!

I don't see it there now...The one I saw was at Barnes and Noble in Atlanta for about $75.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 06, 2005, 01:50:02 pm

We've really gotten quiet in terms of discussion here. Is everyone just too busy these days?

Well, I thought I'd try to start some chat about Many Meetings and The Council of Elrond. There is certainly quite a lot of information in there about what's going on. And, the great reunion with Bilbo and his song. What little we see of Arwen before the very end (with only a small hint about her relationship with Aragorn).

I love, Sam's ending line:

"A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!" he said, shaking his head. So, it ends with Sam's amusing line, rather than Pippin's "Where are we going?" in the film.

Anyone have comments to make?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 06, 2005, 01:58:39 pm

The Council of Elrond chapter is CRAMMED with information. It can be rather overwhelming, I think. Here are a couple of thoughts from Many Meetings.

Many Meetings.

1.When Frodo wakes in Rivendell, the first person he asks for is Sam. Yes, this person who wasn’t on his list of friends has changed in status, hasn’t he? I don’t think he’s just a servant any more.

2.Gandalf smiles when he says, “I have heard all about Sam.” I think he has heard how brave Sam was, as well as how he mistrusted Strider. And I also think Gandalf knows how well Sam has conducted himself.

3.What do you make of Gandalf’s remark, “There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.”? I take it to mean the power of good, or the purity of heart.

4.Note this! Gandalf says of Frodo, “He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” Who do you think are those who have “eyes to see that can”?

5.Frodo says, “I have no courage to keep up.” ALL Tolkien’s heroes have one important quality, humility. Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf, Faramir, Merry and Pippin.

6. Sam “begged to be allowed to wait upon his master” but wasn’t allowed. Again, we see the element of the noble servant in Sam. We also see Frodo looking for him first, then seeing Merry and Pippin at his side. Frodo knows what Sam has done, how faithful he has been and is perhaps seeing his servant in a different light.

7. Frodo doesn’t want to show the ring to Bilbo. Already, he is feeling its effects. There is a rather nasty encounter and Frodo is tempted to strike his uncle. Bilbo understands more about the Ring than Frodo does here, I think.

I'll pull out some things from The Council in a day or two.

I hope this isn't too much. Let me know if it is. I have notes that are probably far too extensive! LOL

* blush

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on December 06, 2005, 02:52:44 pm

grr, i had a whole big post written up, and then i lost it.

ok, so. The Council of Elrond was a tough chapter to get through...very looooong! "crammed with information" like Rach said, it definitely was overwhelming.

JRR really likes Bilbo doesnt he? he mentions him all the time...kind of annoying :-X i guess i just dont like Bilbo as much.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 06, 2005, 03:07:11 pm

Have you read The Hobbit yet? If you haven't, give it a try. You'll like Bilbo much better afterward. He's really a smart, brave, sweet hobbit.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 06, 2005, 05:31:05 pm

When I first read the books, I read LOTR before the Hobbit, which I thought in retrospect was a mistake. There is just so much more in LOTR, that I found The Hobbit a little disappointing after having read it. But, when I reread the books in early 2004, I started with The Hobbit and I liked it much better that way and I did like Bilbo better after reading that. Also, I think Bilbo comes up frequently because JRR is trying to show the strong bond he has with Frodo and how much Frodo misses him. That has to come with frequent mentions since we don't see them together much at all.

Moonlit - I hate when that happens. ::)

No need to blush Story, you brought up some interesting points. I'm not quite sure what to say about them all, but I certainly enjoyed reading them.

About 1, 2 and 6 (If I didn't already know this, I'd certainly have guessed that you are a fan of Sam after reading this list ;)): I think the nature of the relationship between Frodo and Sam is definitely changing. Sam will always think of himself as Frodo's servant since that is his nature and his role, but Frodo is definitely seeing more in him and is recognizing how good a friend he has been. And, of course, that will only increase as the story progresses as we all know.

I agree with #'s 3 and 5.

4 is interesting. I noticed it when I read it, but didn't think it through. I would guess that Tom Bombadil and Gandalf are givens. Maybe elves? (I'm thinking of Glorfindel "as he is on the other side.") Or maybe those who know him and love him most (just to think of it a little differently). I'm not sure what I think about this yet.

7. Frodo certainly is feeling the effects of the ring. And, Bilbo does not understand at first, but when that shadow comes between them and then passes, he realizes that if he saw it again, he would have a hard time letting it go again too. I don't think he goes in to the encounter knowing or understanding more than Frodo, but by the end of that brief scene I think he has gained further understanding that Frodo really can't have since he has never given the ring up as Bilbo did.

I just looked back at the quote from #2. I think he is mostly referring to his mistrust of Strider there (and along with that his protectveness of Frodo), but I'm sure Gandalf has heard all about his bravery too.

I'll stop blabbering here and see what others have to say. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 06, 2005, 05:34:53 pm


Quote:
Or maybe those who know him and love him most (just to think of it a little differently).


We will see this later, and learn at least one person who sees it. I won't spoil it by telling, but it's worth watching for.

I'm sorry if it was too Sam slanted. I actually tried to balance it because I am, by nature, a Sam fan. I'll try a bit harder to rein it in! LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 06, 2005, 05:45:45 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=165#msg949670 date=1133908493]

Quote:
Or maybe those who know him and love him most (just to think of it a little differently).


We will see this later, and learn at least one person who sees it. I won't spoil it by telling, but it's worth watching for.

I'm sorry if it was too Sam slanted. I actually tried to balance it because I am, by nature, a Sam fan. I'll try a bit harder to rein it in! LOL
[/quote]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm guessing Sam. Well, just because. ;D But, I don't remember the specific instance. I will keep my eyes open for it now, though. (Although remind me later if I forget, OK?)

And, don't worry about reining it in. There is nothing wrong with being a Sam fan and you have brought up many interesting points. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 06, 2005, 05:48:03 pm

I Pmed you on it.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 06, 2005, 05:57:07 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=165#msg949516 date=1133895519]
4.Note this! Gandalf says of Frodo, “He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” Who do you think are those who have “eyes to see that can”?[/quote]

Well, Shelob has many eyes. But can they see? They are used to the dark though. And what about Smeagol, he certainly has big eyes and they are keen as well.

Nah, don't take me serious. I'm just making things up right now. ;D My only serious guess would be Faramir. 8)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 06, 2005, 06:00:57 pm

Faramir. Interesting. I hadn't thought of him specifically, but he certainly is a little different from other Men and understands better about the ring than Boromir, for instance.

Although, I suppose I shouldn't say anymore right now, since we haven't even "met" Faramir yet and I don't want to post spoilers for those who haven't read the books before.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 06, 2005, 09:07:17 pm

[quote author=Cristiel link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=150#msg947728 date=1133559760]
I just love to open the closet and just look at them. I know, I'm weird ;D[/quote]

No you're not, Cristiel. My leather bound Tolkien books are like works of art to me and like to just look at them, too. I had no idea you had read LOTR so many times.


Quote:
I love to go to bookstores to check what books they have. ..... I guess the huge bookstores in the UK and USA should be like paradise for me 8)


LOL ! Oh boy, would you love the Barnes & Noble bookstores in the US. They are HUGE and they have everything....well almost everything, I suppose.

Story, what kind of book stores do you go to where you can sit in the aisle and read? In the stores I go to you'd be trampled.

I haven't been to this thread for a week, and I haven't read anymore of LOTR for a week. You've had a very interesting discussion going on here. I'll get caught up and join in soon, but since I've already LOTR, I can at least follow along with your discussion. However, I need to keep reading to refresh my memory. I've seen the films so many times since I read the books that it's hard to remember the books vividly now.







Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on December 06, 2005, 09:12:23 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=165#msg949780 date=1133921237]
LOL ! Oh boy, would you love the Barnes & Noble bookstores in the US. They are HUGE and they have everything....well almost everything, I suppose.

Story, what kind of book stores do you go to where you can sit in the aisle and read? In the stores I go to you'd be trampled.
[/quote]
i LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE Barnes & Noble. its like heaven. luckily for me, people dont go there a lot (dont ask me why, its amazing! they have a little cafe where you can order coffee and just read! ah!) so theres hardly ever anyone in there; sitting in the aisle reading is so much fun. i especially love looking at the art section's books. amazing...and the design books (one with French design that i want my house to look like). i want to go there now.

wow, i'm not completely off-topic... ::)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 06, 2005, 09:26:53 pm

One of the things I miss most since I moved from NYC is Barnes & Noble stores......and their little cafes.

LOL, you're right.....I guess we are a bit off topic, ::) but at least we're talking about bookstores, not supermarkets. ;D

OK, back to LOTR...........


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 07, 2005, 07:47:09 am

I live in the sunny southland. NONE of our bookstores are too crowded to sit in the aisle and read! LOL The tractor pulls and gun shows, however, are always sold out! lol

Here are a couple of things from The Council of Elrond chapter that might, or might not, bear consideration. What I am posting are notes from the readthrough we just did at the Study. I am just hoping they will be helpful.

Please forgive me if they are Sam slanted. Maybe since this is very understandably a Frodo oriented place, you can just think of me as a balancing factor! LOL

Council of Elrond, Part one

1.I always giggle when Sam follows Frodo to the council. He is DETERMINED not to be left out, isn’t he? But at the same time, I’m wondering now, since I’ve read this chapter in the HOME books, whether it isn’t fated that Sam do this? In HOME, Elrond says that the fates of Frodo and Sam are "woven together", so perhaps it is also NECESSARY that he be at the council (and probably a good thing in the end, since he winds up going WITH Frodo). He sits at Frodo’s feet, so there is no way Elrond and Gandalf didn’t see him, yet they didn’t chase him away. Perhaps they knew something….

2.Elrond says, “Called I say, though I have not called you to me.” Who called them all together if Elrond didn't? Each them has a purpose in being there, which means that even Merry and Pippin are necessary.

3.Frodo seemed stunned when he realized that Elrond remembered the fall of Gilgalad. I think he knew in his head that elves were immortal, but knowing something in your head and knowing it in your heart are two different things. I have to admit that I smile for Frodo a bit here.

4.Now Faramir is having prophetic dreams. This is a device Tolkien uses often. The Valar are trying very hard to help as much as they can. One of the Valar governs dreams, but I can't remember which one.

5. Aragorn asks Boromir if he wishes the house of Elendil to return to Gondor. Now THERE is a question FULL of portent! If the heir does return, Boromir’s father is no longer ruler of Gondor. Aragorn obviously has thought about this and realizes that it is going to be a problem. What is Boromir supposed to say here?

6.Boromir thinks that Gondor is soley responsible for the safety of the world up to now, but Aragorn lets him know better. Snicker. Go Aragorn!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on December 07, 2005, 11:45:03 am

I have really enjoyed reading through these last couple of pages. Many of you are very insightful! You have brought out several points I had not thought about. I can't think of anything to add but I have enjoyed your contributions.

I must admit that I really struggled with getting through The Council of Elrond. I knew it was important to read to understand the over all story so I didn't skip any of it. But up until now, I couldn't not wait to keep reading to see what would happen. This was the first time I had to "make" myself keep reading.

And, Rach, I don't mind in the least if your notes are Sam-slanted. ;) :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 07, 2005, 01:59:32 pm

I really need to run, so I can't respond to all of Story's points, but a quick comment:

Doesn't your comment about the Valar (4), answer - at least in part - your question in #2 about who called them all to Rivendell? Or maybe it was Iluvatar himself. But, it seems to be some of the powers beyond the peoples of Middle-Earth.

I'm really enjoying this too! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 07, 2005, 03:13:06 pm

I think that's very possible, Celebrian. For those of you who have never read The Silmarillion, the Valar had been fighting Sauron for ages, as well as his mentor, Melkor. Melkor had been defeated finally, but Sauron pretty much took his place. Another name for Melkor is Morgoth so when Leggy says, "A Balrog of Morgoth!" he talking about the dude who taught Sauron how to be evil.

The White Council that Gandalf talks about in The Council of Elrond chapter was formed to fight Sauron. It consisted of Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, and others of the Eldar, Gandalf, Saruman, and Rhadagast. though Galadriel wanted Gandalf to head it up, Saruman wound up in that position. If she had been listened to, things might have turned out very differently.

Another note that might help. Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are all Maiar. The Maiar are just below the Valar in rank and power and are their helpers. They are forbidden, just as the Valar are, to coerce the Children in any way. Sauron and Saruman broke that rule pretty thouroughly.

What am I leaving out, Yeux?

Can you tell I'm currently reading The Silm? LOL In it the Valar are very concerned about protecting the Children of Iluvatar (elves, men and his adopted children, dwarves. Hobbits are included under the race of men.) SO it makes perfect sense that they should be helping out the Fellowship and especially Frodo and Sam.

Some bits from the second part of the Council of Elrond chapter.

1.Saruman had once been a frequent guest in Minas Tirith. THAT is an interesting fact, isn’t it?

2.The last meeting of the White Council was after Bilbo found the Ring, and still Saruman thought it lost.

3.The elves didn’t know what would happen to the three and all the things that had been made with them once the One was destroyed but still they were willing to take the risk.

4.You will notice that there was no argument in the book, before Frodo offered to take the Ring. So, why did he offer? Did Bilbo give him the idea? Did he not want to give the Ring up? Did he somehow KNOW this was his destiny?

I'm having to pick through my notes a bit as some are spoilers and some have to do with our specific read through. I hope it's making some kind of sense....

Hugs,
Rach





Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 07, 2005, 05:57:11 pm

Rach - Interesting summary of stuff from the Silmarillion. Cristiel ahs been rereading it too, so if she pops in maybe she'll see if you missed anything.

About 4, the lack of argument. That is an intersting change in the film, but the conversation has made it clear that there is no choice but to take the ring to Mordor and Bilbo did sort of give him the idea, but Frodo knows that the ring is no longer Bilbo's responsibility and that really Bilbo can no longer handle it. The ring is his responsibility and so he must take it on. I think it is more about destiny than about giving up the ring. I just don't get the impression that he's thinking of the possibility of having to give it up at that point.

3. Not only do the elves not know what will happen to the 3, but Elrond thinks that they will lose their power and is still willing to do that. I'm not sure I quite understand why this is the case since Celebrimbor made those rings and Sauron has not touched them, but it seems like it is. But, I think their willingness is related to both defeating Sauron once and for all and to their realization that the time of the elves is ending and they will be sailing into the west anyway.

Another interesting set of comments Rach! :D

Edit: I just looked back at the Council of Elrond (when I was starting the Ring Goes South) and I didn't interpret it the same way you did here, Rach:


Quote:
He sits at Frodo’s feet, so there is no way Elrond and Gandalf didn’t see him, yet they didn’t chase him away. Perhaps they knew something….


Sam jumped up from sitting on the floor in the corner and Elrond had to turn to look at him, whereas Frodo was sitting next to Elrond. I don't think Sam was at Frodo's feet although when he jumped up he undoubtedly came out of the corner and closer to Frodo. I would think that Elrond and Gandalf were not unaware of his presence and I think he was fated to be there as were all the others who had come to Rivendell, but I don't think he was right in the middle of things the whole time either. So, aside from the bushes, I think the film actually depicts it rather faithfully since even in the film we wouldn't have seen Sean much if he was sitting on the floor in a corner.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 08, 2005, 04:00:50 am

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=180#msg950161 date=1133996231]
Edit: I just looked back at the Council of Elrond (when I was starting the Ring Goes South) and I didn't interpret it the same way you did here, Rach:


Quote:
He sits at Frodo’s feet, so there is no way Elrond and Gandalf didn’t see him, yet they didn’t chase him away. Perhaps they knew something….


Sam jumped up from sitting on the floor in the corner and Elrond had to turn to look at him, whereas Frodo was sitting next to Elrond. I don't think Sam was at Frodo's feet although when he jumped up he undoubtedly came out of the corner and closer to Frodo. I would think that Elrond and Gandalf were not unaware of his presence and I think he was fated to be there as were all the others who had come to Rivendell, but I don't think he was right in the middle of things the whole time either. So, aside from the bushes, I think the film actually depicts it rather faithfully since even in the film we wouldn't have seen Sean much if he was sitting on the floor in a corner.[/quote]

Yes, I thought so, too, and was wondering if I missed something about sitting at the feet. I imagined it much like it was done in the 1978 animated movie. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 08, 2005, 07:51:28 am

Hmm.. Looking back it does say corner. Perhaps I got the feet part from the HOME books, but it really doesn't change the fact that Elrond and Gandalf, as well as the others, surely knew he was there and didn't send him away. Elrond shows no signs of surprise when Sam speaks up after Frodo volunteers to take the ring.

So the question remains, why wasn't he sent away, since he hadn't been invited to the council?

Here is the bit from the HOME books. This is from The Treason of Isengard, p114.

"If Frodo is still willing, then Frodo as ring-bearer must be the first choice. And if Frodo goes, then Sam Gamgee, must go too, because that was promised, and my heart tells me that their fates are woven together."

This takes on special signifigance when you remember that Elrond is one of the elves who possesses the gift of sight, along with Cirdan and probably Galadriel. He has some vague knowledge of what is going to happen, though it isn't all clear.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 08, 2005, 12:26:42 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=180#msg950373 date=1134046288]
So the question remains, why wasn't he sent away, since he hadn't been invited to the council? [/quote]

Generally speaking - and ignoring for a second the intertwined fates of Frodo and Sam - they (I mean everyone except Elrond and Gandalf) could also be seeing him as a child or puppy dog of some sort: if he behaves, there's no need to send him away, since he probably won't understand much of the talking anyway. Clearly, nobody would speak up against Elrond about the uninvited guest when the Elven lord himself doesn't seem to mind. And since Elrond even foresees the importance of Sam, Sam stays. But he has some humor, I must say. ;D His remark about separating Sam from Frodo was part admiring, part taunting (but not derogative) in my opinion.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 08, 2005, 01:37:50 pm


Quote:
But he has some humor, I must say. His remark about separating Sam from Frodo was part admiring, part taunting (but not derogative) in my opinion.


Most people I know hated Hugo Weaving as Elrond. I thought he was SUPERB and I love the way he handled that line! 8)

Ok I just realized where the "sitting at the feet of Frodo" bit came from. I was thinking of the encounter with Gildor's band a bit earlier. There Sam was lying at Frodo's feet. My bad. See? After 40 readings you still get things confused sometimes.
I usually double check these things before I post them but I was in a hurry. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 09, 2005, 12:42:19 am

Quoting Storyteller: What am I leaving out, Yeux?

Good grief! You're asking me???? After reading all that has been said previous to my post, I really, really must get back on track reading LOTR. Am I the only one who loved the Council of Elrond chapter? It's interesting that so many of you found it difficult (boring?) reading because PJ said it was the hardest section for Fran and Philippa to write the script for, too.

I first read LOTR in January, 2002, right after the FOTR film came out. Upon finishing, I immediately read it again then continued directly on to "The Hobbit" and "The Silmarillion." Consequently, with the combination of reading so much so fast....and almost four years ago, everything tends to run together for me.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 09, 2005, 07:32:57 am

No, I love it, too, but I think it takes a number of readings to take everything in. There's just so much there.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: doremi77 on December 09, 2005, 12:18:43 pm

I don't think the Council of Elrond chapter is extra difficult or not likeable. Sure, there are a lot of names, but either (if I am bothered by that) I look them up in books or on the web or I am not bothered and I ignore them.

This is only my fifth reading of LotR in the past 14 years. It's been a looooong time since I read the Sil. As a rule, I tend to look up a lot... too much, actually. But this time I just ignored the stuff I did not remember. Maybe I'll read the Sil afterwards anyway. [IMG]http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c84/doremi77/emo_smile/bunnies/wink.gif[/IMG]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on December 09, 2005, 12:47:24 pm

[quote author=doremi77 link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=180#msg950779 date=1134148723]
Maybe I'll read the Sil afterwards anyway. [IMG]http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c84/doremi77/emo_smile/bunnies/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]

If there's enough interest, we could read "The Hobbit" and "The Silmarillion" with the book reading club as well after we're done with LotR.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 09, 2005, 01:48:12 pm

I;d likely be interested, although it depends when it is since I will be traveling much of the summer again, I think.

I like the Council of Elrond. I did need to pay attention and it took some extra time (I looked at maps a few times to get the geography for instance), but it is an interesting chapter and really fills out the broader story.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 09, 2005, 02:27:42 pm

I was just looking up some Tolkien info for a friend and found this timeline of what happens in the books. I hope some one may find it helpful.

LOTR Timeline (http://www.lordotrings.com/noflash/books/timeline.asp)

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 09, 2005, 05:18:44 pm

I've only looked at the first part, but that is a cool site, Rach. Thanks for the link! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on December 09, 2005, 10:13:44 pm

Thank you so much for the link, Story. Very interesting.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 12, 2005, 04:38:20 pm

A couple of bits.

1. Frodo mentioned staying at Rivendell perhaps for good. Could he already have thoughts of not returning to the Shire?

2.I have always found Frodo's response a bit odd, when Elrond asks him if he is still willing to take the ring to Mordor. "I will go with Sam.: What do you think he means, simply that he will go and Sam will come, or does he mean he will go only with Sam? It's almost as if Frodo is saying, "I will go with Sam, but I don't promise to take the others." What do you make of that?

3.In these two chapters, we see Gandalf in his full glory as the servant of the flame. Tolkien says that the “Secret Fire” is the Holy Spirit. In other words, in the snow on the mountain, the Holy Spirit comes to save them. In the battle with the Wargs, it comes again to burn the tree (like the burning bush?) Kinda interesting when you think of it.

4.Gandalf says the inscription on the doors was in an elf language of the Eldar Days. I assume this is Quenya. SO Frodo reads and speaks Sindaran but not Quenya.

5.It is Sam who rescues Frodo from the Watcher in the Water, not the men. he had already pulled his master free when arrived. GO Sam!

6. Sam killed an orc and ,”There was a fire in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman stand back.” Sam, the quiet gardener, is becoming a warrior.

7.How did the head orc know to go after Frodo?
Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 13, 2005, 05:48:31 pm

Interesting points as usual, Story. I read them earlier, but didn't have time to comment. I'm going to try now. . .

1. At that point, I think Frodo would consider staying in Rivendell with Bilbo. Travel was very difficult and he's tired and all. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't eventually wat to return to the Shire.

2. It is odd, but I think it's because Sam already said he would accompany him at the end of the Council of Elrond, so they were the only two already committed.

3 and 4. Interesting. I hadn't heard/realized that.

5 and 6. :D And, yes, we've mentioned the Sam becoming warrior before based on an earlier Frodo quote.

7. Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe the Orcs are somehow attracted to the evil of the Ring like the wraiths?

A few other things:

Has Gollum been folling them the whole time or did he re-discover them in Moria. I think it's the latter - he was there in the Shire, but maybe not on the whole journey to and then from Rivendell - but figured I'd ask.

If I understand right, Elrond's sons went to Lothlorien to see Galadriel and Celeborn when they went out scouting. Do we know what happened with that? It says they only spoke to Elrond about it. Is that the reason Galadriel wasn't surprised when they appeared, and was surprised that Gandalf was not with them?

There was something else I had wanted to ask about, but I didn't mark it and now I don't remember. Oh, well.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 13, 2005, 06:29:09 pm

I think you are right. Gollum found them in Moria. He could have been following them, but I can't think of anything that indicates it.

Yes. Galadriel already knew they were starting out, and I'm sure Elladan and Elrohir told her. Galadriel also has the gift of sight, the way some elves have of knowing things before they happen. Remember in the movie that she kind of read the minds, or perhaps the hearts, of the company.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 18, 2005, 10:26:52 pm

OK, for the first time reading the chapters for this week, I jotted down a few things I wanted to comment on. Mind you, I think there were one or two others that I meant to write down and forgot, but here is what I've got:

1) Sam has an interesting comment about the different Elves and night - well "moon and stars" vs. day - "sunlight and bright day". This fits nicely with Arwen as the Evenstar (in Rivendell) and Galadriel as the Golden (as in sunny) Lady (in Lothlorien).

2) At Cerin Amroth, Aragorn says "Arwen vanimelda, namarie!" What does that mean exactly? I know he is thinking of Arwen and having been at that place before (I won't say more because it is spoilerish for the Appendices).

3) Random thing: How far is a league?

4) Interesting mentions of the timelessness and beauty of Lorien, which we learn at the Mirror is due to the work of the Elven Ring, Nenya, that Galadriel wears.

5) In Galadriel's Mirror, Sam's sees himself at Cirith Ungol (at least I think that's what it is when he is going up stairs and searching for something), and the things that Frodo sees in the Mirror in the film about the destruction of the Shire. Does Frodo see Gandalf the White? It could be Saruman, but I suspect it's Gandalf since we know he saw Gandalf imprisoned at Isengard I think he has a connection to see Gandalf when he is not around. My guess, although maybe I'm wrong here, is that he also sees Osgiliath, Minas Tirith and Aragorn's ship with his banner of the House of Elendil. So that could be the battle at Pelennor Fields since Aragorn arrives on a ship from the South. Then, the small ship I assume is the one Frodo takes from the Grey Havens into the west.

6) I was named (possibly for the only time in the entire LOTR - not including appendices) by Galadriel and Aragorn when she gives him the gift of the Elfstone brooch! ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 19, 2005, 07:44:35 am


Quote:
Arwen vanimelda, namarie!" What does that mean exactly?


It means roughly, "Arwen, my beautiful beloved, goodbye". "Mel" is love in Sindarin, an interesting word because you add things before and after it to change its meaning.

A young girl at The Road has adopted Vanimelda as her middle name and plans to change her name legally when she's of age! LOL

According to good old Webster's Dictionary, a league is a measure of distance that is anything from 2.4 miles to 4.6 miles. That's nice and definate, isn't it?

Nice point about the difference in the elves. The elves love moonlight and starlight because when they first woke in ME, that is the only light they had. (There was no daylight.) Many elves followed Orome to Valinor, but many others stayed in ME. Maybe that's the difference here. I don't know. I'm good with hobbit history but my elf history is DEFINATLY lacking! LOL

I've always thought that showing Sam the destruction of the Shire was a final test of his loyalty, something Galadriel did to make sure his heart was true. It goes along with the fact that she looked into the heart of each member of the company when they first met. It could very well be the same with Frodo, that showing him all that was going on, the Black Ships, and the Eye, was her way of saying, "You will carry the fate of the world, and face supreme evil. Will you still go on?"

Galadriel showed the mirror visions only to those with “the wisdom and courage to endure”. Perhaps she knew, or was fairly sure Frodo would continue the quest before she showed him. Sam as well?

Speaking of her testing of the members of the company, I thought PJ did extremely well depicting that. Boromir looks terrified, as if he knew she was finding out his secret. Frodo, she almost accuses with her eyes, but he doesn't flinch. Sam, she searches but comes away with a pleased smile. As a Sam fan, I love this bit about Galadriel, and how she seems to approve of Sam.

This section has my favorite name for Sam in the entire book, Galadriel calls him, "Little gardener, lover of trees" and gives him his box of soil. Remember the soil. It's important later.

Galadriel and Celeborn know each of the fellowship by name, even Sam. As a Sam fan, this is very heart warming. Imagine a gardener from the Shire, a servant, being known by name by creatures such as these. Just taking on this mission brought great honor!


This is a chapter of tests, and even Galadriel has hers. Frodo once again tries to offer up the ring, but Galaldriel also passes her test by refusing his offer. All of the purest hearts in this book pass up a chance at the ring, including a mortal one, as we see later.

The wise here all realize that the cause of evil often starts with the very best of intentions. Galadriel tells Sam that she would mean to set things straight in the world, but that is how destruction itself would begin. I wish some of our leaders these days would read this chapter.

One more note, to me, this chapter further connects Frodo and Sam together and Sam to the Ring quest. He alone is pulled aside with Frodo for this final test. If Galadriel had run Sam off before showing Frodo the mirror, I would have been disappointed. But she didn’t. I think that she KNEW it would come down to both of them, that both of them needed the final testing, but also that the would both pass.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 19, 2005, 05:26:56 pm

Interesting analysis, as usual, Story. :D And, thanks for the answers to various questions.

I think it is clear that the wise understand that there is much more to Sam than may meet the eye. He is the first (and only) companion that Gandalf chooses for Frodo when he is first leaving the Shire. Then, Elrond certainly seems comfortable with sending him with Frodo when he leaves Rivendell. It is the others, and in particular Pippin, that he is hesitant to send. And, now Galadriel is comfortable enough with his wisdom and courage that she offers him the chance to look in the Mirror.

And, yes, his appreciation for Nature and growing things is certainly something that Galadriel would be interested in with the importance of the mallorn trees to Lorien and the elves who live there.

And, as for testing Sam with visions of the destruction of the Shire, I think that she knew that he would go on in the end, but just helped him to realize the importance of finishing the quest he is on with Frodo and his part in the big events of their world.


Quote:
All of the purest hearts in this book pass up a chance at the ring, including a mortal one, as we see later.


Actually, hasn't Aragorn already passed on the opportunity to take the Ring? At the Council of Elrond, when Frodo learns that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur, he says something about how that makes the ring Aragorn's. But, Aragorn refuses to take it. As obviously did Galadriel here, Gandalf back in Bag End and did Frodo offer it to Elrond? I can't recall for sure, but certainly there was an implicit offer to give it to Elrond's keeping in Rivendell.

Also, just a little note: I commented earlier on the Night/Day elves. This will come back in a little amusing bit later that I don't think made it into the film, unless I am forgetting at the moment.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 19, 2005, 06:46:05 pm

I never really took Frodo's offer of the Ring at the Council seriously, for some reason. I've always thought of it as hmmm... more a comment than an offer. It would be interesting to know how Frodo would have reacted then if Aragorn had decided he DID want it. Of course, it was no more Aragorn's than it was Frodo's. I don't think the Ring could really ever belong to anyone other than Sauron.

There is only one being who ever held the Ring that gave it up completely voluntarily (Bilbo had help from Gandalf). The movie didn't do that moment anything LIKE justice, in my opinion.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 19, 2005, 08:55:17 pm

Ahhh, I see better now where you are going with this. ;D Although, I don't think your statement:

Quote:
There is only one being who ever held the Ring that gave it up completely voluntarily

is quite true. Tom Bombadil held the ring and gave it up completely voluntarily. He is not the same type of being as most of the characters - in fact we're not sure exactly what he is, but he is a being of some sort and he did give it up. But, of course, it had no apparent power over him in any way, so that makes it different.

And, it's true, the offer to Aragorn was not nearly as formal as to Gandalf or Galadriel. But, at the time, Frodo wanted to be done with travel and danger and the quest and the thoughtful, unaddicted part of him would certainly have been willing to hand it over to Aragorn as the rightful heir of Isildur. His reaction would have been interesting in terms of the addicted part of him, though. But, I think the fact that Aragorn would not take it when the opportunity possibly presented itself is important. It tells of his character and shows a distinct difference between Aragorn and Boromir's later behavior.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 19, 2005, 09:21:08 pm

ACK! i MISTYPED IT! I'm sorry. I meant to say one MORTAL being!

And he is the mortal being who carried it into Mordor, where it's power was strongest.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on December 19, 2005, 11:45:58 pm

Story and Celebrian, I love reading through your comments and have learned so much from them. Both of you are true book analylists and really "see" the deeper meaning. I appreciate your comments so much.

I a sorry I don't post much here. On top of my computer being slow so I am not frequenting very many threads now, I just really don't feel like I have anything to add. But I enjoy your comments and I continue to read along with all of you.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 20, 2005, 10:43:17 am

I'm glad you're enjoying reading here. And, I understand about your computer problems. But, I'm sure that anything you would want to add would be interesting. :)

I feel a little like Story and I are having a bit of a tete-a-tete. I'm really enjoying our discussion, but it would be great if other people joined in and made comments too. :D

Oh, and yesterday I looked at the rest of the timeline site. Very interesting. I didn't go back to think it all through but at times I was a little surprised at how long or how short certain time spans were between events. I'm assuming that the website is right since I'm sure they went through it closely and that if there were mistakes people would have pointed them out and I can't recall now specific instances (although it took Elrond and Arwen a very long time to reach Lorien - despite the fact that I assume they had horses, although maybe not). Anyway, just wanted to mention that I did go through it and it is a very interesting site and is helpful at comparing when things in the different story threads happened in relation to one another.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on December 20, 2005, 10:58:06 pm

Thank you, Celebrian for your confidence in me and my ability to add something interesting to the discussion. I think your confidence in me about that is greater than my own. :D I have really enjoyed you and Rach's tete-a-tete's (I confess I had to look that word up :-[ ;D), though.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: myFrodo on December 23, 2005, 11:00:59 pm

Hi Storyteller!! Unfortunately, I could not join the group to read LOTR, but thanks for the timeline. It's great!! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 26, 2005, 01:45:00 pm

You're very welcome! I enjoy finding these things.

I got several LOTR books for Christmas, my first hardbacked copy (with the Alan Lee illustrations! Woo hoo!) and a book of essays about Tolkien's work by famous fantasy authors. I hope I'll pick up some stuff that will help our readthrough!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 26, 2005, 11:09:35 pm

I don't know where in FOTR I'm supposed to be at the moment, but I finished it Friday.

I first read LOTR right after I saw the movie of FOTR. I have now seen the films soooooooo many times, reading the books was like a brand new experience. It's almost like the two aren't even related they seem so different to me now.

When do we start on TTT?


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 27, 2005, 07:20:43 am

Some time after New Years, I think.

Are we still posting on the last chapters?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Cristiel on December 27, 2005, 01:03:57 pm

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=210#msg957118 date=1135656575]
When do we start on TTT?

[/quote]

We start again on January 9, Yeux. I posted the full schedule in the other thread.

I'm afraid I'm way ahead with being home sick for so long. I'm about to finish TTT (there's only your favorite chapter to read, Rach). I hope I'll be able to participate in the discussion a bit more, I realize I haven't been very active.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 27, 2005, 02:01:37 pm


Quote:
(there's only your favorite chapter to read, Rach


*sigh* I love that chapter!
Hugs, Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on December 28, 2005, 12:47:08 am

[quote author=Cristiel link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=210#msg957265 date=1135706637]
We start again on January 9, Yeux. I posted the full schedule in the other thread.[/quote]
Thanks, Cristiel. Sorry, I wasn't thinking straight. I forgot you posted a schedule for all three books.....thought it was for only FOTR.

I've already started TTT, but I read The DaVinci Code in between FOTR and TTT....a little change of pace.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 28, 2005, 09:49:09 pm

Unless I missed it, we haven't discussed the last two chapters of FOTR at all. I have finished them, but I didn't take notes and I don't recall anything specific I wanted to comment on right now.

I had forgotten that Frodo was wearing the ring when he was leving in the boat and that Sam couldn't even see his hand to grab it. And, it does make more sense that they went back for Sam's backpack. I don't think that's clear in the film. Although, I really do like the little "goodbye" scenes with Aragorn and Merry and Pippin in the film.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 28, 2005, 10:00:40 pm

I wondered if we were going to talk about them.

As to the very end, I love the way Frodo laughs at Sam's insistance on going along. He is clearly relieved that Sam has taken that decision out of his hands.

Frodo says, "It is plain that we were meant to go together." That line harkens back to the bit in the HOME series where Elrond says that Frodo and Sam's destinies are "woven together."

Lost is starting again. I'd better go. LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on December 29, 2005, 05:13:25 pm

[color=Blue]You're all such experts on LOTR, I am glad that I can learn so much from you. :D

I haven't been able to participate much these days but I am still reading your comments, and I particularly liked your interesting exchange on the previous pages. :)

Thanks for the timeline Rach, it's fantastic! :-*[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 29, 2005, 06:50:52 pm


Quote:
I haven't been able to participate much these days but I am still reading your comments, and I particularly liked your interesting exchange on the previous pages.


Oh dear... for some reason this worries me....


A few more things on the last chapter...

Boromir speaks kindly at first. How many evils have begun in just this manner?

“True hearted men, they will not be corrupted.” Famous last words, indeed. It is this certainty that is Boromir’s undoing. We see that it is those who doubt their strength who are truly strong. Maybe this is why I trust a doubter over a cocksure fool any day!

There was no sound in Frodo’s visions on Amon Hen (The Hill of Sight), possibly because this WAS the Hill of Sight. If he had been on Amon Lhaw, there would have been only sounds.

What power was telling Frodo on Amon Hen to take off the Ring?

I LOVE that Frodo knows Sam will understand his leaving. I hated that they changed that in the movie, but I suppose they thought it was more emotional that way. Sam knew Frodo as well as he knew himself and Frodo knew him.

Aragorn would pick three companions for Frodo, Gimli, himself and Sam. The relationship between Frodo and Sam must be pretty obvious to everyone in the fellowship, for Aragorn knows Sam could not bear to be separated from his master. What would have become of Sam, if he had not caught Frodo in time?

Sam is anxious to go after Frodo, but when he realizes he is too small to run, he knows that he needs to stop and think. VERY wise of Sam, to use his head when his body won’t serve. To me, this is a sign of how good Sam’s intelligence is.

Frodo and Sam have a real moment here. To have Frodo go off alone would have killed Sam. I don’t think he would have cared to live, and would in fact have grieved himself to death. Frodo can not stand the idea of Sam dying in his service, but we know who won that argument. LOL

I know I tend to see things from Sam's point of view. That is both the cause and effect of being a fan of the good gardener. I'm not trying to convince you to interpret things the way I do, but this is how it looks to me. That we should see things from different perspectives is not only normal, but inescapeable, and beautiful.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on December 30, 2005, 06:12:41 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=210#msg958018 date=1135900252]
Oh dear... for some reason this worries me....[/quote]

[color=Blue]It does? Why is that, Rach? ;D

By the way, I'm slowly catching up with the reading.. ;D
Back to Uni on Monday.. :P ;)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 30, 2005, 06:18:30 pm


Quote:
It does? Why is that, Rach?

I just wish I could see your face when you say it!LOL

I think I might be a bit paranoid being a Sean/Sam fan on this board! LOL

I've been thinking alot about the "Sam as the only mortal to give the ring up freely" thing and I have to stand by what I said.

I won't say any more about it. I've learned better. (Not here!LOL)

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on December 30, 2005, 10:41:44 pm

Interesting comment about no sounds on the Hill of Sight. I hadn't thougt about that.

And, in answer to your (rhetorical?) question: was it Gandalf the newly White telling Frodo to take off the ring. We know Frodo can sense gandalf at a distance other times.

I thought Aragorn's choice of companions for Frodo was also interesting. I might have thought he'd choose Legolas over Gimli, although the Gimli of the book is less "comic relief" than in the film. And, Aragorn does have some elf-like traits himself. And, I do think he understands that Frodo and Sam are meant to go together as Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel all seem to understand.

Gotta run!

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on December 31, 2005, 07:03:55 pm

That's sort of what I was thinking,Celebrian. Aragorn was raised largely by Elrond, so he sort of represents both races.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 01, 2006, 07:05:07 pm

Oh my, I'm half way through TTT and getting anxious to move on, but we're supposed to start discussing that January 9th. Has anyone else read ahead?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 01, 2006, 08:16:52 pm

I have but I'm also reading The Silm and The Treason of Isnegard at the same time so I try to stay a little ahead, just in case.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 01, 2006, 09:33:52 pm

I'm in the middle of Fast Food Nation and I have a book discussion book for my real life group to read before starting TTT which I thought we were supposed to start reading on Jan 9 and then discuss it the following week. Did I misread that? if so, I will be rather behind for a while, I'm afraid.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Colleen on January 01, 2006, 09:42:55 pm

i didnt read at all, so if we are starting discussion on the 9th, i too will be behind

ps. sorry for my absence lately. life is crazy. but i have Fellowship completely read and am excited to start TTT

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 02, 2006, 04:33:22 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=210#msg958263 date=1135984710]
I just wish I could see your face when you say it!LOL

I was completely earnest. ;)

I think I might be a bit paranoid being a Sean/Sam fan on this board! LOL

Aww, but you're not the only one, and Sean is a great guy and Sam a wonderful character. I love him to bits! :-*

I've been thinking alot about the "Sam as the only mortal to give the ring up freely" thing and I have to stand by what I said.

I won't say any more about it. I've learned better. (Not here!LOL)

You can say anything you like, I'm very interested in reading what each of you thinks :) - you, Celebrian, Yeux and Cristiel are really quite the experts when it comes to LOTR. :D

[/quote]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 02, 2006, 07:41:50 pm

I just typed out the entire discussion and lost it! ACK!

I will go into it when we get to the end of TTT.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on January 02, 2006, 11:19:36 pm

Sorry you lost your discussion, Story. :-\ I know how discouraging that can be! And Carina, is right, you aren't the only Sean/Sam fan here ;) though you know tons more about both of them than I do. ;D

I am nearly done with TT. I am sorry I have not participated more in the discussion. I will try to do so when we begin the TT discussion. Some of the rest of you come up with such interesting and deep thoughts, I just can't think of a lot to add. But I really enjoy reading the discussion here, even if I don't participate much. I have learned a lot from many of you.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 03, 2006, 12:57:34 am

I'm like you, Rose. I'm almost finished with TTT and I don't seem to have nearly as many things from it that I want to discuss as I did with FOTR. I do have several pages marked with little stickees so when we get to TTT, I can remember them.

I find most of the things that jump out at me are comparisons of the books to the movies. I love spotting things and thinking about the way PJ, Fran and Philippa worked them into the films.

But I love reading what everyone has to say.



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 03, 2006, 07:14:42 am

Rose, I'm still just a bit gun shy from that other Elijah site I went to that time. I know it's much better, much kinder here. And I think Elijah would like that.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 03, 2006, 11:24:31 am

[quote author=Carina link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=225#msg959248 date=1136237602]

You can say anything you like, I'm very interested in reading what each of you thinks :) - you, Celebrian, Yeux and Cristiel are really quite the experts when it comes to LOTR. :D
[/quote]

Wow! :o I certainly wouldn't put myself in the expert category with Storyteller, Yeux and Cristiel. But, I am honored that you did. :D

I really enjoy our discussions whether they are about deep things or comparisons with the movies or just light stuff that we notice (like suggestions for scenes in the R-rated versions of the films ;D). I hope that more people will jump in with whatever thoughts they have or things they noticed when we start discussing TTT. I enjoyed my chats with Story, but would love it if more people participated too.

Sorry you lost your post Story. How frustrating! And, sorry you had a bad experience on another Elijah board. I don't think you'll ever find that here. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 04, 2006, 06:42:58 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=225#msg959441 date=1136290482]
Rose, I'm still just a bit gun shy from that other Elijah site I went to that time. I know it's much better, much kinder here. And I think Elijah would like that.

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

[color=Blue]Aww, that's such a wonderful thing to say, I'm really really glad about that. :D
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in the past, Rach.

I'm nearly finished with FOTR (I just passed the mirror of Galadriel) and I just have to say that while I'm an Elijah fan and very very fond of the character Frodo, I'm growing fonder and fonder of Sam each time as well, more so now than when I read the book for the first time, he's just so loyal and caring, it's beautiful! When he looked in the mirror and saw the Shire destroyed he decided to stay with Frodo and he is always there for him! Good old Sam. :-*

Sorry to go back to things that have already been discussed :-[ :-[ but here is something that I don't understand. Galadriel has one of the three rings of power, and only Frodo but not Sam can see it, is that right? And Frodo offers her the one ring but she refuses.. Was she actually really tempted to take the ring and would she have used it for good or would it have corrupted her? I thought the Elves were above these things? I'm not sure I understood her speech very well, could someone explain to me what she meant, right at the end, after Frodo offers her the ring? I must sound so ignorant, in comparison to all you LOTR experts, but I figured if I don't ask you, who should I ask? :)
Thanks a lot for your help. :-* :D


You're welcome Celebrian. :-*
You do notice a lot of things, which is great!! :D[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 04, 2006, 06:57:49 pm

Carina,
I love that Sam has this viceral sort "I have to go home NOW" reaction when he looks in the mirror, but comes right back to the correct path. It makes his character more beleiveable, more human. I think I appreciate Sam's goodness more knowing that it isn't always easy for him, but he always seems to make the right choice.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 04, 2006, 10:04:35 pm

Carina - I don't have the book in front of me, nor do I remember all the details, but in answer to some of your questions: The ring would eventually corrupt anyone who tried to use it to evil even if they started out being and intending to always be good. Even Gandalf wouldn't take it for that reason and he's Maiar, not elf. I think she was truly somewhat tempted, but she overcame that temptation because she knew that even she could not control it to do only good. Yes, Frodo sees it but not Sam. The rings of power are hidden in some way (not sure how exactly, maybe Storyteller, Cristiel or Yeux could help us here?), but once Frodo sees the Eye (as does Galadriel) and as the ringbearer of the one ring, it becomes visible to him. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but it does seem to be the case. Briefly, Galadriel's speech says she would be a powerful queen who would do good, but the ring would eventually corrupt her to evil so her subjects would despair. Then, she overcomes it, realizes that her ring will lose power (I will diminish) and it will be time for her to go into the west and remain Galadriel, rather than become an all-powerful ruler. I think that's the gist. But, please correct me if I'm wrong (I really worry about doing this without the book at the moment. . .).

Also, I don't think you sound at all ignorant. Some of the stuff can be confusing and sometimes I don't even know whether I have interpreted something correctly, so it's good to discuss it amongst ourselves. We can clear up a lot of things in our own minds as well as learn new things that way. :D

And, yes, Sam is certainly a wonderful, loyal and lovable character.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on January 04, 2006, 11:45:25 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=225#msg959441 date=1136290482]
Rose, I'm still just a bit gun shy from that other Elijah site I went to that time. I know it's much better, much kinder here. And I think Elijah would like that.

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

I agree with Celebrian and CArina, Rach, rude and unkind people on this forum are few and far between (and I notice the few that have appeared don't usually stay long). But I know your experience on the other board was awful and I am really sorry it happened to you. :-\ I had a bad experience on another LOTR based forum so I can relate a bit.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 05, 2006, 08:33:27 am

The other forum was full of people saying SUCH unkind things especially about Sean. I had to think, "You're talking about a friend of Elijah's. Do you think he'd LIKE this??" I should have known then it was it was full of silly people.

You are right about Galadriel, Celebrian. She was tempted, but she was wise enough to know what the end result of accepting the ring would be. Gandalf did also, and Aragorn, and Sam. They knew that attempting to use the ring, even for good, would only bring about their downfall.

Tolkien explains it this way. The Ring corrupts everyone who carries it. The speed of that corruption depends upon three things:

1. The power of the bearer. The stronger the bearer is, the faster they are corrrupted. Ergo, Gandalf and Galadriel, being powerful beings, would be taken quite quickly.
2. The bearer's DESIRE for power. The more power the bearer WANTS the more quickly they are taken. This is what happened to Boromir. He wanted the power to defeat the Sauron, and even though his desire was for a GOOD reason, the ring was able to use that against him. (And he didn't even carry it!)
3. If one does evil to get the ring, it takes them immediately. This is what happened to Gollum. He killed to get the ring, so he was corrupted immediately.


Looking at these, you can se why hobbits were the perfect, and probably only, choice to take the Ring to Mordor. They have no power, and want none. They had received the ring through no real wrong doing.

Gandalf had been interested in hobbits for hundreds of years (and had a special friendship with the Tooks). He had a feeling that they would have an important part to play in the saga of the ring, though he didn't know what it would be.

I hope that helps.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Etaeb OLC on January 05, 2006, 01:25:22 pm

I've posted these pictures in another thread but I thought they fit in here too.

These pictures are from an old LOTR books I have. Its from 1980.
I have a feeling they show some Rohirrim soldiers. What do you think? I'm not that sure..
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/Scannen0003.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/lotrpic.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/lotrpic2.jpg[/IMG]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 05, 2006, 01:42:56 pm

Oh those are LOVELY! Would you mind if I saved them, please?

I've never seen these covers before.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 05, 2006, 01:54:54 pm

[color=Blue]Rach, I completely agree, the fact that his reaction was so wonderfully spontaneous makes him a much more believable character. In everything Sam does there's so much goodness, it's heartwarming.

Thank you so much Celebrian for your wonderful explanation, it all makes so much sense to me now! You helped me out so much, because that was one of the parts I always had trouble with. I'm reading the book in english and most things I understand perfectly but sometimes certain passages just become a little difficult to understand, which is why I'm even more happy that I can come back here and ask questions. :D

Rach, thanks so much for the additional insight into Galadriel and the ring, that's very very interesting. It's really true, there's so much meaning behind every sentence, it seems like you could read the book every year and still find new things! Tolkien really created a piece of art.

Etaeb, the publisher was actually called Hobbit Presse? That's so funny! ;D[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 05, 2006, 02:05:17 pm

So glad I could help Carina! :)

Rach - Thanks so much for the overview of how the ring corrupts. That is really interesting and fits so nicely with the book. It all makes so much sense, but I couldn't have articulated it of course.

Nice pics Etaeb. I think Rohirrim soldiers are a good guess given the hats. Thanks for sharing them. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 05, 2006, 02:31:37 pm


Quote:
It's really true, there's so much meaning behind every sentence, it seems like you could read the book every year and still find new things! Tolkien really created a piece of art.


There are so many of us that read it at least once a year and hve done so for many, many years. How many books could you read so many times and STILL get something new everytime?

I agree, Carina. That's a large part of what makes this book a true piece of art!

You're welcome, Celebrian. Just one of those bits I've picked up along the way. LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Etaeb OLC on January 05, 2006, 04:39:42 pm

You can save them Storyteller ;D ;D
I don't mind
Do you want me to scan the other covers for you from my other old LOTR books?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 05, 2006, 07:03:25 pm

Don't go to all that trouble just for me. But if you happen to be doing it anyway.....

;D

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 05, 2006, 07:06:51 pm

Quote: I must sound so ignorant, in comparison to all you LOTR experts, but I figured if I don't ask you, who should I ask?
Thanks a lot for your help.


It made me so sad to see you say this, Carina (previous page.) Please don't ever, ever put yourself down. You are by no means ignorant. Shame on you for even thinking such a thing. *puts on scolding face*

And think about this: You are reading the books in English although German is your first language. That's one h*ll of an accomplishment in itself. So I don't think you're ignorant....I think you're bloody brilliant! :-*



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 05, 2006, 07:16:14 pm

I couldn't agree more, Yeux! It's amazing to me that anyone can read so complicated a book in another language, and Carina's doing SO BEAUTIFULLY! I couldn't come close on my best day!

I as very honored about a year and half ago when a dear friend in the Czech Republic translated many of my stories into her language then printed out and sent it to me. It is so strange to see my words in another tongue. It's one of my most prized possessions!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 05, 2006, 07:32:35 pm

What a lovely thing for your Czech friend to do, Story. :-* I would consider such a gift a prized possession, too.




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Etaeb OLC on January 06, 2006, 10:40:44 am

As promised
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/pic5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/pic4.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/pic7.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/hobbitheinze/pic6.jpg[/IMG]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 06, 2006, 10:43:07 am

Oh, Thank you! Those are just lovely!

I'm grabbing them all very greedily!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 06, 2006, 02:11:58 pm

Wow Etaeb! It's so great that you have all those versions of the books and artwork. :D

Story - That was lovely of your friend to translate your stories. What a wonderful keepsake for you to have. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 06, 2006, 03:55:22 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=240#msg960538 date=1136489497]
There are so many of us that read it at least once a year and hve done so for many, many years. How many books could you read so many times and STILL get something new everytime?

I know :D - at the top of my head I can't think of another book that has been and is being read so much, over and over again, with the joy never fading. :D
[/quote]

[quote author=Yeux de bleu link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=240#msg960649 date=1136506011]
It made me so sad to see you say this, Carina (previous page.) Please don't ever, ever put yourself down. You are by no means ignorant. Shame on you for even thinking such a thing. *puts on scolding face*

And think about this: You are reading the books in English although German is your first language. That's one h*ll of an accomplishment in itself. So I don't think you're ignorant....I think you're bloody brilliant! :-*
[/quote]

[color=Blue]Aww Yeux, I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel sad; thanks so much for your lovely words, you're so sweet!! :-*
I promise to never say such a thing again. :-*

Thank you so much Rach for your very very kind words. :-*

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Cazzie2005/Posted%20at%20Always%20and%20Forever/cloud-puddle.jpg[/IMG]

That puddle you see there? That's me, I just melted away. :-*


Etaeb, I LOVE the covers, they're so beautiful!! :D[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Etaeb OLC on January 06, 2006, 06:36:32 pm

Sorry about the tilted scans.

I always keep an eye open in second hand shops. Only bought all of the books for less than 10 pounds. Most of them in Oxfam.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 07, 2006, 05:33:26 pm

[color=Blue]Wow, that's amazing Etaeb, you're so lucky!! :D :D

I just got a german copy of LOTR from the library to compare the language used. And it's really beautiful because as an extra they've got a map in there. :D

I finished FOTR today!! ;D

When the Fellowship was travelling on the river, I liked reading the description of how Aragorn seemed to grow taller at the sight of the Argonath. :D

When you read the book for the very first time, and before you knew what was going to happen with Boromir, did you dislike him because he wanted to get at Frodo and the ring or did you feel sorry for Boromir?

And do you think that he was actually corrupted by the ring or did he just want to take it because his father instructed him to find out more and perhaps bring it back to save Gondor?

:)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 07, 2006, 07:22:04 pm

I read LOTR the first time right after the film of FOTR came out. I didn't have a very good feeling about Boromir in the film. He seemed arrogant, a little too interested in having the ring for himself, and I doubted his commitment to the Fellowship.

However, he came across quite different in the book. And in TTT, after reading what Faramir says about him, I came to like him much more.

And do you think that he was actually corrupted by the ring or did he just want to take it because his father instructed him to find out more and perhaps bring it back to save Gondor?

I think he really wanted the ring because he thought it could save Gondor more than for his personal use. However, he seemed to be overcome with the desire to get his hands on it -- for whatever purpose -- when he tried to take it from Frodo.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 11, 2006, 06:32:32 pm

I wish I remembered how I first felt about Boromir, but it was SO LONG ago....
I think the Ring corrupted him. I think he was a good man at heart who fell victim to evil and was sorry afterwards. Boromir, to me, was there to be an example of how the power of the ring to corrupt even those with the best of motives. Just my opinion, of course.


As to the first two chapters of TTT...

1.Aragorn blames himself for all the bad things that have happened. “It is I who have failed!” Doesn’t this seem like a parallel to Sam, who also blames himself for things that, to the reader’s omniscient eye, are not his fault? Humility is one of the hallmarks of Tolkien’s heroes.

2.I find the send off the Hunters provide for Boromir very touching. It is significant that they take the time to “bury” him in this way, thought one wonders if they wouldn’t have been wiser to go after the LIVE members of their party more quickly.

3.Aragorn refuses to leave Merry and Pippin to death at the hands of the orcs. He realizes that Frodo’s fate is no longer in his hands. TO be honest, it never WAS in his hands.

4. Aragorn thinks himself “a poor chooser” yet nothing that happened has been his fault. My favorite part of Aragorn, as I have said, is his humility. I have seen so many people say that movie Aragorn is wishy washy. I have to disagree. He considers his options, and realizes that he doesn’t know everything. Book Aragorn is the same, as we see again here.

5.“With him lies the true quest.” Even ARAGORN knows he is a subplot! LOL

6.Aragorn has served with the Rohirrim. In fact, he has served in both Gondor and Rohan in disguise, learning about the people he might one day be expected to rule. He was training himself for the coming day.

7.The Rohirrim are NOT kin to the people of Gondor. They are not descendents of Numenor. Eorl the Young “brought them out of the north”. This statement is one of the ones used to theorize that the Rohirrim may have been ancestors of the hobbits, or at least lived along side them.

More later.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 13, 2006, 05:03:18 pm

[color=Blue]Thanks so much Yeux and Rach for posting your thoughts on Boromir, I also feel that his commitment to the Fellowship was not very strong but in the end I think he redeemed himself because he felt sorry for what he did.

Rach, I agree with everything you said about Boromir's send off. Why do you think that Tolkien had them spend so much time on this part?

I got the Lord of the Rings audio books (in german) from the public library yesterday and the beginning was nice (Bilbo's party..) but I thoroughly disliked the way that Gollum's part is spoken (The riddle ..) I'm sorry to be saying this but it was painful and scary to listen to..

Has anyone listened to the english audio books? :)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 13, 2006, 05:13:58 pm

I have the old BBC version. It's ok, but it doesn't hold a candle to the film.

I think the funeral for Boromir came from Tolkien's love of Nordic legend. It is a very Viking-ish way to bury someone, I think. I'm no expert on Nordic legend. They were honoring Boromir's sacrifice, but I personally think they should have gone after Merry and Pippin.

We just have to remember that they thought differently then.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 13, 2006, 05:30:53 pm

Thanks Rach. :)

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=255#msg964322 date=1137190438]
They were honoring Boromir's sacrifice, but I personally think they should have gone after Merry and Pippin.[/quote]

[color=Blue]Me too...
[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 13, 2006, 09:54:35 pm

[quote author=Carina link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=255#msg964312 date=1137189798]
Has anyone listened to the english audio books? :)[/color]
[/quote]
I've tried to listen to audio books a couple of times (not LOTR) and I find my mind wanders. I really much prefer to read.

I'll come back to discuss your points, Story -- which are excellent by the way. I've finished TTT and something jumped out at me by the time I'd finished it. So much is made about Sam being "slow" or not very smart. I didn't find this to be true. He can think and reason as well as the next person when he has to. Most of the examples that come to mind are further into TTT than the first two chapters, so I'll wait to bring them up. But one that is in the first two chapters is that Sam makes the decision to go after Frodo. I think that was very smart thinking.

I don't find Sam either "slow" or not very bright.....to me he's just a rustic.

Story....your thoughts on this?





Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 14, 2006, 06:49:19 pm

Most TOlkien scholars believe that Sam's name was a joke of Tolkien's, that he gave the name "half-wit" to an unusually shrewd and intelligent hobbit.

However, there's more to it than that. In the People's of Middle Earth, there is a section on language that contains an earlier version of Sam's name. It was closer to "Banazir", Sam's name in the Hobbitish language. Tolkien defines the name as meaning "half, almost".

This makes MUCH more sense, because as TOlkien named Frodo "frod" which means "Wise by Experience", a name that fits his character, he gave the name that means "almost or becoming wise" to the character he says evolves the most throughout the course of the story.

Hugs,
Rach


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 14, 2006, 09:35:18 pm

[color=Blue]Wow, I found some short clips of J.R.R. Tolkien reading parts from his book tonight - very interesting. :D

I also found a part from the BBC recordings I think - the man on there has a nice voice. :)[/color]

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 14, 2006, 10:03:06 pm

OK. I finished the first three chapters. Phew. Just to clarify something, I think the schedule is for reading not for discussing, meaning that we were reading the first three chapters this week and discussing them officially starting tomorrow. I didn't go back to check, but I am almost certain that that is how we did it for FOTR. I think we need to make sure that we are all interpreting the schedule the same way so we know when to be reading/discussing what. Am I remembering wrong?

I agree with all your points Story, and LOL at 5. ;D

Gotta run. Hopefully more tomorrow or Monday,

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 14, 2006, 11:42:39 pm

You're right, Celebrian. The schedule is for reading.....discussion starts the following week.

Story, I heard/read somewhere that Samwise was actually suposed to be kind of a joke because Sam was not considered "wise."

I have an LJ friend whose LJ user name is Ms. Banazira. Now I know where she got that. ;)

[Quote]
As to the first two chapters of TTT...

1.Aragorn blames himself for all the bad things that have happened. “It is I who have failed!” Doesn’t this seem like a parallel to Sam, who also blames himself for things that, to the reader’s omniscient eye, are not his fault? Humility is one of the hallmarks of Tolkien’s heroes.[/quote]
I never thought about the humility aspect, but you're right. By the way, a bit off subject, but did you ever see the photo of Stuart Townsend made up and dressed as Aragorn, before he was replaced by Viggo?


Quote:
2.I find the send off the Hunters provide for Boromir very touching. It is significant that they take the time to “bury” him in this way, though one wonders if they wouldn’t have been wiser to go after the LIVE members of their party more quickly.

True....but I think they had tremendous respect for the dead and it would have been beyond their comprehension to have just left Boromir without at least a minimum of ritual.


Quote:
3.Aragorn refuses to leave Merry and Pippin to death at the hands of the orcs. He realizes that Frodo’s fate is no longer in his hands. TO be honest, it never WAS in his hands.

I don't recall his exact words, but Aragorn says that there is nothing more he can do for Frodo.


Quote:
4. Aragorn thinks himself “a poor chooser” yet nothing that happened has been his fault. My favorite part of Aragorn, as I have said, is his humility. I have seen so many people say that movie Aragorn is wishy washy. I have to disagree. He considers his options, and realizes that he doesn’t know everything. Book Aragorn is the same, as we see again here.

"Wishy-washy" ??? I can't see how anyone would think that.....from either the book or the movie.


Quote:
5.“With him lies the true quest.” Even ARAGORN knows he is a subplot! LOL

I agree with Celebrian.... ;D


Quote:
6.Aragorn has served with the Rohirrim. In fact, he has served in both Gondor and Rohan in disguise, learning about the people he might one day be expected to rule. He was training himself for the coming day.

I noticed in the movie that Aragorn acts like he doesn't really expect to become king of Gondor -- and acts like he really doesn't want to, at least in the beginning -- but that's not true of him in the book, as you pointed out above.


Quote:
7.The Rohirrim are NOT kin to the people of Gondor. They are not descendents of Numenor. Eorl the Young “brought them out of the north”. This statement is one of the ones used to theorize that the Rohirrim may have been ancestors of the hobbits, or at least lived along side them.

Is this in the book somewhere, and I missed it? It's been a long time since I read "The Silmarillion," but I thought in it somewhere there was a link to the Gondorians. Not that they necessarily were decendents of the Numenoreans, but that they are in the race of men. I don't recall any connection to the Hobbit race. :-

(Just noticed that the undecided smiley [ :- \ ] doesn't work.)





Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 15, 2006, 06:20:53 am

The supposition of Sam's name being a joke is widely accepted but not true. Tolkien himself said it, as I said, in The Peoples of Middle Earth. I MUST buy that book so I can scan in the passage. Now that I have a bigger bookshelf, I'll have room for more books.

I haven't seen Mr. Townsend dressed as Aragorn. I'd love to see it.

It is very bothersome to me to see the number of people who have written popular books on Tolkien's works that have major, glaring errors. I'm not talking about differences in interpretation, which is only to be expected, but actual statements that are in blatant opposition to what Tolkien himself said. If you are going to write a book on the man, at LEAST read the Appendices in the back of The Return of the King! Foster has the date of Sam's final "fate" TOTALLY WRONG. It isn't like it's hard to find. It's right in the Tale of Years in the Appendices. Other writers have taken up this error in a manner I can only attribute to laziness but its very vexing if you have actually read the information.

If you would like to see this error, pm me and I'll scan it in. I don't want to post it since its such a spoiler.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Caz on January 15, 2006, 02:23:27 pm

[color=Blue]Yes Celebrian, you're right. :)
I'm nearly finished with this week's reading. ;)


Yeux, I COMPLETELY agree with you, my mind also tends to wander when listening to audio books, I tried them this week but the only one I liked was the Harry Potter book which I listened to last year. I MUCH prefer books too. :D[/color]


[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=255#msg964781 date=1137324053]
I haven't seen Mr. Townsend dressed as Aragorn. I'd love to see it.
[/quote]

http://web.telia.com/~u45500842/Bilder/townsend.jpg (http://web.telia.com/~u45500842/Bilder/townsend.jpg) ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 15, 2006, 06:48:19 pm

Thanks, Carina for the pic of Stuart Townsend. I didn't have that one. Mine is a full height photo.....I think it was a costume fitting photo. Now the trick is to figure out where it is. It's a photo I got a long time ago before I knew what the heck I was doing when I tried to save photos. They ended up in all kinds of strange places. But I'll look for it.

Edit: I checked and the photo was sent to me on February 7th. I didn't know how to save photos back then and now the link no longer works. But I've emailed the person and asked if she would resend it. I'll post the photo as soon as I receive it.

Edit #2: OK....here's a larger, sharper version of the pic Carina posted the link for. I'm still hoping to find the full-height photo. Stuart sure looks gorgeous, but I agree with PJ.....too young.

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/magicdancer/LOTR%20Films/townsend-aragorn2.jpg[/IMG]





Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 15, 2006, 07:51:59 pm

Thanks Carina. Seeing him though, I think I agree with PJ that he looks a bit too young.

I assume its ok to discuss now? It's Sunday.

The “white flame” that Legolas sees on Aragorn’s brow is a vision. The kings of the north wore no crown, but a diamond on their head called the Elendilamir. It plays another part in the story later on, much later on.

“The doom of choice” It is important to remember that Tolkien’s use of doom is as a synonym to “fate” and not necessarily a BAD thing.

Eothain scoffs at the idea that hobbits were real . There will always be scoffers in the world, and most of them are fools.

Now we know where the Nazgul’s horses came from. They were stolen from Rohan.

Aragorn tells Eomer that he rode with the Rohirrim “though under another name and in another guise.” He did the same in Gondor.

I also love the fact that Legolas can hear the trees speaking.


Quote:
Is this in the book somewhere, and I missed it? It's been a long time since I read "The Silmarillion," but I thought in it somewhere there was a link to the Gondorians. Not that they necessarily were decendents of the Numenoreans, but that they are in the race of men. I don't recall any connection to the Hobbit race.


It's in the Apendices, among other places. Check out the House of Eorl. It will explain the origins of the Rohirrim. They claimed a connection to the people of Rhovanian and moved to the north of ME from the vales of Aunduin. At that time, hobbits also lived in those vales. I will try to scan in the maps from the Middle Earth Atlas some time this week. Similarities in their languages are offered as further proof. Tolkien calls hobbits a "subbranch of the race of men", ie biologically, they are men, with the idea being that they somehow arose from that race.

If any of you are interested in hobbit history, you might enjoy taking a glance at "A SHort History of Hobbits" on my website. I still need to finish the Baggins and Gamgee families, but this early period it there. This is not a "story" but an essay based on research into Tolkien's writings and that of other respected Tolkien scholars.

I have to go. 24 will be starting. More later.

Hugs,
Rach


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 15, 2006, 10:17:42 pm

More interesting comments Rach. I know I had something I wanted to bring up and I didn't jot it down and couldn't find it again when I flipped through the book. Aargh.

So, was the old man Saruman? Or Gandalf? since he wore a hat rather than a hood?

First talk of the fell beasts.

I thought it was interesting that Merry talks about having to get up to Pippin's level in terms of deeds. Pippin did seem to be in better shape during the march with the orcs leaving footprints and his brooch for Aragorn to find and getting the ropes untied. But, as we know from the films so not a big spoiler, Merry certainly plays his heroic part later. :)

Gotta run. But, it's nice to see some more people posting on the discussions here. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 16, 2006, 06:55:19 am


Quote:
I thought it was interesting that Merry talks about having to get up to Pippin's level in terms of deeds.


I think that is just more of the humility of Tolkien's heroes. Tolkien's heroes are "Christ Heroes" (literary term) as opposed to the anti-hero we are more used to today.

Yeux, I have scanned in a page from Karen Wynn Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle-Earth" that mentions the fact that the Rohirrim and the hobbits shared territory. There are many of these mentions, but this is the easiest to get to. I hope it tells you what you want to know.

I have it in two forms. The first is with a map of the migrations of the hobbits, for those of you on faster connections.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Storyteller/migrationswm.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Storyteller/migrationswm.jpg)

Let me know if you can't read it. I can post a better one.

And this one is just the text for those with slower access.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Storyteller/migrationsnm.jpg[/IMG]

Just a note, Frodo, Bilbo, Merry, and Pippin are all Fallohides, the aristocracy of hobbitdom. Gollum was descended frpm Stoor stock and Sam was a Harfoot, the most common hobbit tribe and the smallest in stature. The book says that Gollum was bigger than Sam, something PJ neglected to depict. Frodo was probably also taller than Sam, since he was Fallohide.

BTW, I collect Tolkien refernece books, as I may have already told you, but take it from one who owns a lot of them, if you plan on investing in only one, make it The Atlas of Middle-Earth! The research this woman has done is AMAZING and I have yet to find a major error in it. It is CRAMMED with maps and helpful information, and at a good price.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 16, 2006, 01:58:24 pm

Thanks for the scans, Story. Very interesting.

And, one other thing I meant to mention about these chapters was the quarrel between Gimli and Eomer. That will come up again later in a scene I like that wasn't in the film, so I wanted to mention it now.

I hadn't remembered the part about the tree leaning in toward the fire either. Interesting that the tree like the warmth of the fire also.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 16, 2006, 03:49:30 pm

Oh, woe is me! *hangs head in abject shame*

I have the "Atlas of Middle-Earth" and agree it's excellent. But it's been a couple of years since I read it.

What amazes me, Story, is that we've read so many of the same things -- including, of course, all of Tolkien's books -- but yet you remember soooooo much more than I do. Perhaps it's because you're more involved with it all on a day-to-day basis. But you sure do impress me.

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/magicdancer/Miscellaneous/Gif%20Images/GLASSE1.gif[/IMG]





Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 16, 2006, 04:42:32 pm

LOL ! I have the world's worse memory, for everything BUT Tolkien.

It isn't what I've read, its the length of time I've been reading it. I've been a student of Tolkien for almost 40 years. I remember when Tolkien was ALIVE and talking about his work. I've written a number of research papers on various aspects of the work, but I STILL don't know what a lot of experts do. I am, however, aiming to BE an expert before I die!LOL I have to be. I hope to see Tolkien in heaven because I have QUESTIONS!!!!!!!

ROFLASC!

I need a literary and scholarly pursuit in my life, and Tolkien is the one I have chosen. I've always loved to learn and I need something to study, a field. I guess I should have been a college professor.

If I am bothering you all, just tell me, because I can shut up if you'd rather. :-X

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 16, 2006, 04:56:27 pm

Oh, please, Story. Never feel like you need to not talk about stuff here. I think it's great that we have such experts reading along with us and discussing the books and the broader Tolkien world. I'm learning a lot and it is very interesting and deepens my appreciation and enjoyment of Tolkien's work.

And, yes, it does sound like being a professor would be a good career for you. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 16, 2006, 05:44:31 pm

Quote: If I am bothering you all, just tell me, because I can shut up if you'd rather.


What??? Are you serious?

Of course you're not bothering us. I can't possibly imagine this thread without your input. It's marvelous. Don't stop......that's an order! ;D

I had no idea you had been interested in Tolkien for so long. No wonder you know so much. :o

I can figure out all of ROFLASC except the SC. Could you fill me in?



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 16, 2006, 05:56:44 pm

I believe SC is scaring cat because I asked that once a while ago.

And, Story, you know you have to listen to Yeux's orders. She is a mod and all. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 16, 2006, 06:58:26 pm

Yes, it's "scaring cat". It's a very old variation of the acronym.

Ok, I just don't want to bore people. Like Sean, I warm to the subject and know that not everyone is as interested in details as I am. ;)

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 17, 2006, 05:54:53 pm

Well, I don't think this will be too spoilerish, but fair warning in case it is.




But, I wanted to say a little more about why I commented on Merry needing to catch up to Pippin in terms of heroics. I remember after reading LOTR a couple of years ago talking to my husband about the hobbits and their deeds. Frodo and Sam walk into Mordor and (with some help from Gollum) destroy the One Ring. Major heroics. Merry helps Eowyn to kill the Witch King who cannot be killed by a man. Big heroics. Pippin does several smaller things, but no single big heroic deed (that I recall anyway). That's why I found it interesting that Merry was talking about "catching up" because later I think it's Pippin who ends up a little "behind" the others. But, we can discuss this more when we are discussing ROTK. I just wanted to clarify my comment and where I was coming from.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 17, 2006, 06:55:54 pm

That makes perfect sense, Celebrian. As you said, we'll can discuss it more after we get to ROTK.

Dancing around the spoilers can be tricky, can't it?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 17, 2006, 09:01:52 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=270#msg965852 date=1137542154]
Dancing around the spoilers can be tricky, can't it?

Hugs,
Rach
[/quote]

Yup. ;D But, I think we are doing pretty well with it for the most part. And, since we can pretty much safely assume that everyone here has seen the films, that helps some.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 17, 2006, 09:21:53 pm

Celebrian: And, Story, you know you have to listen to Yeux's orders. She is a mod and all. ;D

LOL....I try to only throw my weight around when it's to my own advantage.....hee, hee. ;D

Regarding heroics. Pippin lit the first beacon, which was very important. (OMG....was that only in the film? I can't remember.) Arrrgghh!


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 17, 2006, 09:50:17 pm

Yeux - In the interest of avoiding potential spoilers on the thread, I PMed you about more details about Pippin's actions in ROTK.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 17, 2006, 10:01:11 pm

OMG....I'm soooo sorry. :-[ I don't know what I was thinking. Well, I guess I wasn't thinking. I forgot when I was writing that post, that we're only talking about TTT. I'm so used to thinking of LOTR as a whole that I totally forgot we're only supposed to be talking about TTT.

Thanks for your PM (which I'll go read now) and for helping me keep my foot out of my mouth in the future. :-[


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 17, 2006, 10:08:23 pm

I'm sorry Yeux. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. What you posted is in the film, so I don't think that really counts as a "spoiler" since I think everyone here has seen the films even if they haven't finished the books. I just decided that it was better to take it off the thread at this point. Please don't feel bad. :-*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on January 17, 2006, 10:14:09 pm

Oh, no need to apologize, Celebrian. You didn't actually make me feel bad (I've PM'd back.) I just wasn't thinking about what I was saying and I'd hate to spoil anything for the other readers.

Didn't we decide everyone involved in this reading group has seen the movies? So I got off easy this time. ;) A lucky break.



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 22, 2006, 10:46:26 pm

So, I think we were supposed to start discussing another couple of chapters today, but I'm so swamped in ORC reports I think it will have to wait. I did jot down a few notes, so maybe I can type something up tomorrow.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 23, 2006, 10:39:26 am

I can get things started. I have half an hour before Sean comes on The View. LOL

Did you notice the similarity with their feelings of being “stifled airless” here and the emotions they felt in the Old Forest? The two woods obviously have a great deal in common.

I have always thought that Ents and hobbits had a history together in past times. After all, Sam’s cousin saw one in the North Farthing and Treebeard says that Merry and Pippins' voices remind him of something he couldn’t remember.

Treebeard’s caution about giving out real names reminds me of a culture I once read about, in Africa, I think. Among those people, everyone has TWO names, a public name that everyone knows and a private name that only one’s family and most trusted friends know. It is believed that to know someone’s real name gives you power over them. I think this is a FASCINATING idea, but I have never been able to find out any more about the culture.

Of all the languages of ME, other than Hobbitish, I think I would like best to learn Entish. I love its respect for old things and the way it builds upon itself to tell a story. I hope you read Appendix F, the section on Ents. It’s short and FASCINATING! It was from listening to the Elves that the Ents got the desire to speak, and there are many elvish forms, words and names in Entish.

“I used to spend a week just breathing!” I love the way Tolkien writes Treebeard’s speech patterns. Almost like poetry it is, especially the way he describes the way some trees are waking and others falling asleep, going tree-ish. So beautiful linguistically!

“What it is I shall learn in good time, or in bad time.” LOVE LOVE that sentence!

Treebeard is truly a symbol of environmentalism. Just listen to his speech about what Saruman and his orcs are doing to the land.

What do you think of the story of the Entwives? They wanted to be settled, to nest. I think this is typical of many women. The Ents wanted instead to roam and remain free. We hear an ent’s side of the tale, but I would love to hear it from an entwife’s point of view.
Treebeard gives three directions they were told the entwives had gone, where the ents had gone to look for them. You will notice that the direction they didn’t mention was north. That could very well have lead them to the Shire. Perhaps the entwives went north, the only direction that the ents didn't look.

IMHO, The Song of the Entwives is probably the worst poetry Tolkien ever wrote ! LOL

Chapter 5 later in the week!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 23, 2006, 05:49:57 pm

Interesting as always, Rach. I hadn't thought about the Entwives going north or a possible prior relationship between hobbits and ents. As for the real name thing - that is interesting too. I think in Jean Auel's most recent book in the Earth's Children series, Shelters of Stone, the culture (where Jondalar was raised) writes the real name on something (carved on stone or twig?) and then buries it without telling anyone but the mother (maybe also the father, but I'm not even sure about that) as a protective thing. I don't remember the details because I read it quite a while ago. It is fiction, but is based on a great deal of research, so I'm sure she found some cultures that did that to base it on. Anyway, back to Tolkien.

Yes, the woods are related and similar. In fact, I think long ago, the various woods actually attached to one another, didnt they? Or some at least, but parts have been cut or whatever. That's my memory, but I may be wrong.

Also, I thought there wasn't actually a separate Hobbitish language. Didn't Hobbits speak the common language?

My comments are not quite so "deep" for the most part. ;)

When the trio meet Gandalf he has the hat, but says it was not him by the fire, so it was Saruman, apparently. I asked about that before. And, the horses sounded happy because they met up with Shadowfax.

I thought it was an interesting difference between book and movie that Treebeard was always poised to go after Saruman. Merry and Pippin may have been a catalyst, but he was already angry and convincing him that they were not orcs was not at all hard.

There is much more in the book showing Legolas' superior vision. Including the fact that he was first to realize that it was Gandalf (Mithrandir).

Gandalf was very happy to hear that Sam went with Frodo (a "gleam in his eye"). (Thought of you when I read that Rach ;D)

He talks about helping Frodo aganist the eye on the Hill of Seeing. Frodo had heard a voice telling him to take off the ring and now we know whose voice that was.

The slime-monster that the balrog became was mentioned in the DVD extras. They couldn't find a good way to show it and it was too expensive on the graphics, but they wanted to include it.

Galadriel messages foreshadow Aragorn's trip on the Paths of the Dead (which Elrond is given in the film) and talks of Legolas and the call of the sea which will come up again later, but I won't say more to avoid spoilers.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 23, 2006, 06:13:22 pm


Quote:
Also, I thought there wasn't actually a separate Hobbitish language. Didn't Hobbits speak the common language?


I'm glad you asked that question! LOL

Hobbits DID speak a variation of the Common Speech (Westron) but Westron is certainly not English. Tolkien claimed to have translated the entire book from Westron. I'm sure you all already know how Tolkien claimed to have gotten the story, so I won't bore you with that. LOVELY story frame, btw.

Below you'll find part of the entry on Hobbits from Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle Earth. This entry also refers, albeit briefly, to the connection between the Rohirric and Hobbit languages. The very fact that the Rohirric people had an ancient word for "hole dweller" is some indication of a connection between these races.

Our hobbits had very different names in the original Hobbitish. Sam was Banazir, but called Ban. Meriadoc was Kalimac which was shortened to Kali, which means, literally, merry. LOL Frodo and Peregrin seem to have the same names in both languages. Frodo means "wise by experience" and Peregrin means "wanderer".

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Storyteller/hobbitish.jpg[/IMG]

Tolkien loved words and meanings and used them so well and so precisely, if a bit, (ok more than a bit) archaically.


Oh and yes, the forests DID connect at one time, I believe.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 23, 2006, 10:01:20 pm

Interesting as always Rach. But, go ahead, bore us with the story frame. ;D Or actually, I promise not to be bored because if I have heard it I am not remembering it at the moment. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 23, 2006, 10:17:28 pm

OK, but please tell me if I bore you, I have a fear of pulling a Seanie and droning on and on! lol

Tolkien always claimed, on a certain level, that he was only the translator of LOTR. (When discussing it on scholarly level, of course, he was honest about the fact that he wrote it. The translation claim was just the story frame.) Supposedly, he found a copy of The Red Book of Westmarch, the one written mostly by Bilbo and Frodo, and completed by Sam. There were, according to him, a number of copies made after Frodo's departure and kept in various places including The Thain's Book, kept at the Great Smials (for those who don't know, that was Pippin's home). Another was kept by Sam Gamgee and his descendents. We'll talk about that one when we read the Appendices so no more about it now. There was probably one at Brandy Hall (where Merry and the Brandybucks lived) and there was one in Minas Tirith, where there were vast libraries. In Gondor it was called The Red Book of the Periannath.

Tolkien said the book he found was probably The Thain's Book, or rather the copy of it that Findegil made in FO 172, as it was the most extensive.

Many hobbits added to the Red Book for generations. Merry wrote a bit from his researches on languages and herblore. Sam's descendents added geneologies.

If you haven't read the Appendices, you are missing a LOT of the story! I hope everyone will read them when we get there.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on January 23, 2006, 10:31:03 pm

I have read the appendices and I vaguely remember something about him finding the book and I did know that Sam's descendants had it and probably also that there were copies. Although I could never have said how many or where they were stored. Thanks. :D

And, I was not at all bored. As promised. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on January 24, 2006, 08:21:16 am

LOL I figured you had read them, Celebrian. That sort of a 'general "you" to anyone else here who hasn't. If you haven't read AT LEAST the Tale of Years, you don't know the true end of LOTR.
(With all those endings, PJ left out the REAL one.) There are people who have written books on Tolkien who have obviously never read it and that just gets on my VERY LAST NERVE!

A few things on Chapter 5

Gandalf’s reaction when he hears that Sam went with Frodo is very moving to me, very important. It shows how necessary Gandalf thinks Sam is to the Quest. Gandalf was wise enough to know that, where Frodo was going, a loving and loyal heart would be of more use than a mighty sword arm. It is also possible that he knew Sam MUST be there, that he had a part to play. More on that further down in this post.

What do you think of the idea that the presence of Merry and Pippin actually saved Boromir? Could that have been why Gandalf insisted that they come? Could he have seen some of what would happen?

Gandalf is one of the Maiar, lesser Valar, and as such had some knowledge of the Music ,the original intention of Eru for Middle Earth.
In other words, he knows, to a certain degree, what is going to happen. However, he doesn't know ALL of it. (This is because Melkor, Sauron's master and mentor, corrupted the Music and caused Eru to end the vision it created. All this is in The Silmarillion. A difficult read, but very interesting,) I just put this in because it explains WHY Gandalf knew so much but not everything, and that he could very well have known why Merry, and Pippin needed to be in the Fellowship.

This thing about what Gandalf knew when is fascinating to me, and I've done a bit of research on it. I'll try not to foist it on you too often! LOL

“He supposes we are going to Minas Tirith for that is what he would have done himself.” Here Tolkien is pointing out the error of assuming that everyone thinks the way you do. This is the downfall of Sauron on several occasions, including the Ring’s temptation of Sam. more of that at the end of TTT.

Galadriel’s message tells Legolas to beware of the Sea. Is she prophesying his passage, or warning him about the Corsairs?

I hope I haven't confused you too much. I was just throwing out things to think about.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on January 31, 2006, 11:12:57 pm

Just popping in to apologize for not being here any more. I feel really guilty since I am one of the "original" ones who had this idea. I have actually finished reading all three books and really enjoyed them, but my online time is limited and I guess I have put other threads over this one. I see that the rest of you are carrying on just fine even without me ;D and I am really glad you all can discuss the books!

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 01, 2006, 07:39:19 am

That's ok, Rose. We all get busy.

I hate being the first one to post but it's Wednesday so maybe I should.

Aragorn quotes the poem that becomes Theoden’s speech at Helms Deep in the film.

Gandalf has a rather bad reputation in Rohan, because he always comes with bad news. There is an interesting discussion about the difference in a HELPER with bad news, and a doer of the evil.

Eomer had not been banished as in the movie, but imprisoned.

What do you make of Legolas’ vision?

You know, of course, that Eowyn and Eomer are called “sister-daughter” and “sister-son” because that is what they are, Theoden’s sister’s son and daughter.


(Possible very slight spoiler)
Gandalf and Theoden’s mercy to Wormtongue causes the ultimate end to the evil of Saruman, just as the mercy of Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam to Gollum causes the destruction of the Ring. Tolkien is clearly demonstrating that only good comes from mercy.


What do you think of Eowyn’s running off to war when she had been told to stay and rule her people?

That's just one chapter. More later.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 01, 2006, 02:04:54 pm

I keep meaning to post about this, but my online time has been quite limited and there's been more than the usual stuff to look at with ORC and all. Thanks for starting Rach.

A few comments;

Aragorn objects to leaving Anduril outside Meduseld. But, that is his only weapon as opposed to the amusing scene in the film where he keeps pulling things out.

Grima spits on the step. Didn't he spit on Aragorn in the film? Or am I misremembering. I really need to watch them again.

At Helm's Deep, in the film just Aragorn and Gimli go out the side door by the gate to fight with the Orcs holding the battering ram. In the book, it is Aragorn and Eomer (and some others) and Gimli shows up to save Eomer.

The contest starts with Gimli at 2 and Legolas at 20.

There is a black shadow/mist described that passes on the road to Isengard. Is that the orc "souls" (or whatever they have) returning?

In "The Road to Isengard" there is an interesting few paragraphs about Orthanc and Barad-Dur that makes the title make sense (the Two Towers). Although I have heard there has been some debate about which towers were meant by the title.

Merry talks to Theoden a bit about the history of smoking pipeweed. We know from the introduction to FOTR that he later writes a book about plants and such.




Edit: And, Rose, I'd love it if you would join us to discuss more even though you have now finished. B ut, I certainly understand the limited time issues. I am struggling a lot with that lately too.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Annouille on February 01, 2006, 02:32:06 pm

[quote author=Celebrian link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=285#msg972916 date=1138820694]


There is a black shadow/mist described that passes on the road to Isengard. Is that the orc "souls" (or whatever they have) returning?
[/quote]

No , the shadow is the Huorns (i don't know if it's the same name in English ???) who come back to Isengard.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 01, 2006, 05:23:41 pm

I thought the Huorns were the trees, so they would be more substantial than a mist or shadow and that they could be heard marching as well as see. Hmmm. Is still a little confused. I may have to reread that bit if I find the time. ::)

Edit: OK I went back and reread. You're right and it makes more sense now. The earth did shake and the darkness was around and over them and they heard voices and all. Definitely the Huorn. Thanks. :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Annouille on February 02, 2006, 04:45:28 am

You're welcome! ;) ::)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 02, 2006, 08:24:01 am

The word is the same in ENglish, Idril. Thanks so much!

Chapter 7 and 8

“Aragorn and Legolas went now with Eomer in the van.” Now, I CAN’T be the only one who, on reading that line, gets a picture of our lads climbing into the back of a silver blue minivan and driving away like they were going home from soccer practice! LOL

Lost of ropes and ladders, dead orcs for everyone. Heads will roll, heads will roll.

Orcs crawled in the culvert. Dwarf blocks culvert. Orcs make big boom boom. Can you tell I that the battle parts bore me?

I DO have to say that I LOVE the fact that the trees do battle with the destroyers. Its so environmentalist so early!

Legolas has a sense of humor. Gimli says that dwarves would pay to see the caves at Helm’s Deep. Leggy replies, “And I would give gold to be excused and double to be let out if I strayed in.” LOL

Orthanc in elvish means Mount Fang, but in the speech of the Rohirrim means The Cunning Mind. It was built by Gondorians to be used as a watchtower upon the west.

The people of Rohan have heard of hobbits, unlike the ents, and seems to find it easier to believe in them than some others. Could this be because their histories were shared at one point?


At the end of this chapter, Merry and Pippin are at their funniest and most charming. Here its good to remember that Merry is, in fact, the prince of a small independent country, and Pippin the heir to a Stewardship. They would have been raised with the skills to deal with royalty of any kind.

Hugs,
Rach



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 02, 2006, 02:11:25 pm

I just saw this at TORn:

Hall Of Fire This Weekend -- Frodo And Sam

2/02/06, 7:08 am EST - Demosthenes
Following our highly successful detour into Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies, this weekend Hall of Fire will explore the relationship between Frodo and Sam. Was it ever a relationship of master and servant, or was it more one of close friendship from the very start? How does it evolve over the course of the Quest? Where do we see Frodo the leader?; where do we see Sam the leader? [More]

I thought some people here (Rach in particular, but others too) might be interested in this.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 02, 2006, 02:14:55 pm

That's interesting. It took place this morning. DO they post a post a chat log?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 02, 2006, 05:37:32 pm

It was posted this morning. The chats are on the weekend. If you go to TORn you can get more details, but I checked and the chat will be
Saturday February 4 at 5.30pm EST in The Hall of Fire.


This is the link to more details:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1138881441

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 02, 2006, 06:26:16 pm

I'm afraid to go. I will probably disagree and be terribly frustrated when I can't give my opinion. LOL

Maybe tomorrow...

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on February 07, 2006, 01:25:17 am

Maybe I'm getting off topic here, but since you mentioned the Hall of Fire chat.....

Are these chats something you can take part in with dial-up or are they like streaming video/radio? I've never taken part in one although I've been aware of them for a long time.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 07, 2006, 07:28:18 am

I don't know. I've never been in one either.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 07, 2006, 01:43:34 pm

I've never been in a TORn chat. I think they're on Java, but when I looked at that link, I think they listed at least 2 ways that you can get in to chat. I think it should work on dial-up because I have chatted at other places when I had dial-up, but not sure. You could probably email someone at TORn to ask about that if you are really interested in joining.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on February 07, 2006, 02:38:57 pm

Thanks for the info, Celebrian. :-*


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 10, 2006, 02:22:11 pm

OK. I don't really have time for this, but I noticed that it's Friday and we haven't discussed the 3 chapters finished Sunday at all yet, so I'm going to try to throw out a few comments that I jotted down before we get to this Sunday and have an additional three to discuss.

Chapter 9:
A comment is made that the only people who could face Saruman on their own are Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel. I won't say too much about this because it is a spoiler, but I wanted to mention them.

They mention the possibility of Saruman having a spy in the Shire to explain how he has pipeweed from there. Foreshadowing. ;)

Gandalf had talked briefly to Treebeard and must have told him a lot because Merry and Pippin have a decent amount of information about the other members of the fellowship that they haven't seen in a while.

Chapter 10:
Those who mount the steps to Orthanc are Gandalf, Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer and then Gimli and Legolas as the representatives of their races. No one mentions the hobbits as a race, although I don't think either Merry or Pippin really wanted to go anyway.

Saruman can't use his voice effectively for multiple audiences. Reminds me of thet boggart in Harry Potter who has trouble frightening multiple people. ;)

Chapter 11:
After having picked it up at Orthanc, Pippin is drawn to the palantir in what seems similar to how Gollum and Ringwraiths are drawn to the Ring. It is heavier than expected like the Ring; he can't give it up on his own like Bilbo with the Ring at Bag End. Some of the descriptions seems so similar in the effects of these two powerful objects.

Sauron expected Saruman and didn't immediately see Pippin who saw Fell Beasts/Nazgul before seeing Sauron.

Aragorn takes the palantir since it belonged to Elendil he is the rightful heir.

We learn that Gandalf didn't recognize that the palantir was the link between Isengard and Mordor even though he saw the value of the palantir at Orthanc.

Pippin didn't see Minas Tirith, as in the film, but Gandalf decides to take him there "before the seas of war surround it."

There were 7 palantirs, most have been lost.

Saruman will look like a rebel since he has no hobbit to hand over to Sauron and no stone to respond to the summons from Sauron either.

Really gotta run.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 10, 2006, 03:10:42 pm

*sigh* I've been meaning to get here all week. You know how that goes.

Chapter 9

I always find it surprising that Merry and Pippin do not immediately ask after Frodo and Sam. They act as though they already know what happened to them, although there’s no way they could. Anyone have any ideas on this?

The Old Forest right outside of Buckland was described a lot like the Huorns, “wild and dangerous”. Remember that the trail changed as if the trees were moving. It sounds to me like there are Huorns in the Old Forest. THIS must have been the walking tree Sam’s cousin saw.

I like the name Quickbeam gives Saruman “the tree killer”. This is in exact balance to the name Galadriel gives Sam, “little gardener, lover of trees”. I love balance in a story!

Chapter 10

Isn’t it a bit odd that it is Pippin that asks if Saruman can cast a spell on them from a distance, and then it is he who is “caught” by the palantir? I have never thought of this before, but I wonder if Saruman hadn’t planned that, after a fashion?

Saruman’s voice sounds different to each listener. This is how he persuades people. I assume Gandalf could do the same, but he is too honest.

The colors are very symbolic here. Not only is Saruman’s white actually many colors that APPEAR white, but notice that while Gandalf’s hair is pure white, Saruman’s has strands of black. Since light is a symbol of good in these books and dark a symbol of evil, this is very significant.

Chapter 11

When reading about how the statue of the White Hand had been toppled, I was reminded of the toppling of Lenin’s statue in St. Petersburg.

The Palantiri were made in Valinor by the Noldor and were used by the Gondorians as long-range communications devices.

Pippin mentions “Over-Heaven”. According to Foster, this is Tarmenel “the source of wind power that blew Earendil to Aman.” Since this made no sense to me, I went to Tyler who said this.”Over-Heaven – The three separate aspects of Creation were: Over-Heaven, Middle Earth, and the Underworld. Between Over-heaven and Middle Earth lay the Undying Lands of the West, home of the Valar and the Eldar from time immemorial.”

Gandalf and Pippin have over 300 miles to ride between Isengard and Minas Tirith.

Next week, back to Frodo and Sam. YAYAYAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 10, 2006, 06:18:11 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=300#msg977379 date=1139602242]
*sigh* I've been meaning to get here all week. You know how that goes.[/quote]

Yup. Me too.



Quote:
I always find it surprising that Merry and Pippin do not immediately ask after Frodo and Sam. They act as though they already know what happened to them, although there’s no way they could. Anyone have any ideas on this?


I commented on this too. From what I gleaned from when Merry and Pippin were talking to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, Gandalf told Treebeard several things in their brief conversation and my impression (or at least the only way I was able to explain it to myself) was that he told them where Frodo and Sam were (in general terms, of course) as well as where AGL were. That may not be correct, but it's all I can come up with.

Interesting points about the Old Forest huorns and the balance in names.


Quote:
Isn’t it a bit odd that it is Pippin that asks if Saruman can cast a spell on them from a distance, and then it is he who is “caught” by the palantir? I have never thought of this before, but I wonder if Saruman hadn’t planned that, after a fashion?


I didn't get the impression that Saruman planned it at all. He certainly didn't want to lose the palantir and I get the impression that his powers at that point were limited. It may have been random, or it may have been "planned" by another power (Iluvatar) in the sense that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, maybe Pippin was meant to pick up the palantir.


Quote:
Saruman’s voice sounds different to each listener. This is how he persuades people. I assume Gandalf could do the same, but he is too honest.


Could Gandalf do that? I'm not sure. I thought that may have been one of Saruman's special talents, like Radagast has a special relationship with animals.


Quote:
The colors are very symbolic here. Not only is Saruman’s white actually many colors that APPEAR white, but notice that while Gandalf’s hair is pure white, Saruman’s has strands of black. Since light is a symbol of good in these books and dark a symbol of evil, this is very significant.


Interesting analysis. I had noticed the robe colors, but not the strand of black in his hair.


Quote:
When reading about how the statue of the White Hand had been toppled, I was reminded of the toppling of Lenin’s statue in St. Petersburg.


Hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it. . .


Quote:
Pippin mentions “Over-Heaven”. According to Foster, this is Tarmenel “the source of wind power that blew Earendil to Aman.” Since this made no sense to me, I went to Tyler who said this.”Over-Heaven – The three separate aspects of Creation were: Over-Heaven, Middle Earth, and the Underworld. Between Over-heaven and Middle Earth lay the Undying Lands of the West, home of the Valar and the Eldar from time immemorial.”


I missed this entirely. Thanks for the explanation.


Quote:
Next week, back to Frodo and Sam. YAYAYAY!!!!!!!!!!!


I thought you might be happy about that. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 10, 2006, 06:41:43 pm


Quote:
Could Gandalf do that? I'm not sure. I thought that may have been one of Saruman's special talents, like Radagast has a special relationship with animals


All of the Maiar could talk to animals. Gandalf does it in The Hobbit, and of course he talks to the eagles in OTR (but the eagles could speak, since Yavanna asked Iluvatar to give them that ability just as she requested that the ents be allowed to speak for growing things. )

The Maiar were, like the Valar, forbidden to in any way coerce the Children (Men, Dwarves, and Elves). All they could do was convince them, so it makes sense that he would have the same gift. The breaking of this rule was one of the "sins" (for lack of a better term) of Saruman. Just one, mind you. Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron were all the same order of being, Maiar. It's pretty interesting if you think about it.


Quote:
It may have been random, or it may have been "planned" by another power (Iluvatar) in the sense that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, maybe Pippin was meant to pick up the palantir.


I'm really into the idea of foreknowledge in this book, the way Tolkien uses it. Gandalf knows so much, but he doesn't, and can't know everything. Tolkien even tells us why in The Silmarillion. The disruption of Morgoth caused Iluvatar to end the vision of creation that the Music made before it was completed, so no one, except Iluvatar himself, actually saw or envisioned all of it.

Gandalf, being close to Manwe, knew more than most since Manwe has the most complete concept of the full will of Iluvatar.

Ermmm...Sorry..pet subject of mine... What did the wizard know when. LOL

Back to matters at hand.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 13, 2006, 10:53:41 pm

OK. I just finished the first 3 chapters of Book 4 (yes, I was a little behind this week), so a few (pretty random) notes to try to get discussion started:

Taming of Smeagol:

Sam is afraid of heights.

Why was Frodo blind on the cliff? lightning? The Nazgul (but isn't blind other times)? the Emyn Muil itself (but not other times)? Maybe Nazgul then the elven rope provides the light?? kind of good/light evil/darkness again? *confused*

I'm surprised Frodo doubts Sam about the knot. I'd think he'd recognize the rope's "elven magic." It's the right length, then longer than needed. Does its length change? or was Frodo's esrtimate wrong? We know the Ring changes size, does the rope do that too?

At what point did the other Fellowship members see the storm in the east? Was that when they were going to Helm's Deep?

Gollum is described as spider-like (walking and then into a ball as if web thread broke and fell); is this a link to Shelob? Also has hearing like elves. Sam talks too loud and Frodo seems to realize more. Shows his older age, wisdom and leadership a bit here I think.

Frodo is described as "a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who had his brightness" but akin to Gollum ad can reach each others' minds. Reminded me of the Elflords or White Rider descriptions. Kind of a glowing power hidden inside.

Frodo rehears the "pity" conversation with Gandalf and spoke as if Gandalf was speaking to him then. This seems like another connection with Gandalf (even though Frodo doesn't realize thinks he things G is dead). More than just a regular memory.

Passage of the Marshes:

Sam falls but not all the way under. Frodo stops and stares into marshes, but those are combined in film to have Frodo actually fall in completely.

Talks about the physical weight of the Ring and cowering from the Eye whose presence Frodo feels.

They see Nazgul 3 times traveling. Do the other fellowship members see or hear about all three times?

Sam overheard the Gollum/Smeagol conversation, but Gollum ended on top which is opposite of movie. I think. Or was it this way in the added scene like this? Gotta re-watch the films! ;D

Frodo was refreshed from a fair vision. Was this sent by Gandalf? Galadriel? Someone else?

Black Gate is Closed:

Sam thinks of Gollum/Smeagol as Slinker/Stinker.

Sam thought through Gollum's motivations and is described as "Sam's slow but shrewd mind." We've talked before about how Sam is intelligent. He just isn't necessarily quite as quick about some things as some of the others, including Frodo who is also older.

Frodo recognized "Give it back to Smeagol" as Gollum wanting to get the Ring back and the potential threat that poses. Threatens Gollum with putting on the ring and tellng him to do anything and he will. He is not blind or overly kind. Frodo is not as far gone as it may have seemed or sometimes seems in the film, I think. He is more aware and a stronger leader than I felt the film portrayed at moments.

Are the Silent Watchers that Gollum describes at minas Morgul Nazgul? Or something else?

Gollum refers back to his torture with mention of only 4 fingers on Black Hand but they are enough.

The timeline was clarified: Frodo was deciding about Cirith Ungol at the same time that Gandalf was facing Saruman. Frodo felt hope from Gandalf even though he didn't realize it.

Sam's Oliphaunt poem was a light moment after great dread from 4 nazgul flying high up and then men from the south entering Mordor very near to their hiding place.

OK. That's it for now. Phew! ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 14, 2006, 08:21:42 am

Good write up, Celebrian!

Chapter 1

SOme of my notes are amazingly like yours, Celebrian! LOL

I don't know why Frodo was blind either. I guess it was just that dark. The light did seem to come from the rope, which doesn't surprise me. Definately good/light evil/darkness again.

In this chapter, Frodo seems to be terribly hard on Sam. This is my note from the same section:

Frodo is being a bit hard on Sam here, about trusting to his knot. Its obviously the magic in the rope itself that made it come. One would think that someone as educated in elven ways as Frodo would have understood this. This is the second time we find Sam having faith in something elvish when Frodo doesn’t.

Frodo feels confident enough to feel both “amused and annoyed” at Sam. I think he was ANNOYED because Sam was deriding himself so. Frodo has already learned that Sam is far from the “ninnyhammer” his father would have people think.

Sam is actually quite intelligent but that and "quickness" aren't always the same thing. Sam has a very logical mind., He reasons things out, the way he reasoned out what Frodo was up to on Amon Hen. But Sam also has a very emotional mind. Sam is much more quick when it comes to his emotional intelliegence. Emotional intelliegence is Sam's long suit and it serves them well on the journey.

Sam is being very brave to take the climb first, but Frodo is right that he should have looked first. Already, Sam is showing his bravery for courage isn’t lack of fear, but doing what you must in spite of it.

Gollum is stronger than Sam and would have killed him if Frodo hadn’t been there.
I love Frodo here! This is the book Frodo I see, brave, and protective of his friend!
The movie tended to negate this part of Frodo and that bothered me a bit. Frodo wasn't fragile when he started the quest. The Quest MADE him fragile.

Already, Sam shows his nobility. “…but he could not avenge himself; his miserable enemy lay groveling on the stones whimpering.”

“Sam was gentler than his words.” Exactly my point. Thank you, Frodo. Sam talks as if he could be cruel to Gollum, but he can’t when it comes to it.

Unlike the movie, the rope is NEVER tied around his neck, only on his ankle.

Chapter 2
Sam is SORRY that he mistrusted Gollum, and is already feeling pity for him. Sam is not nearly as vile to Gollum as the Gollum fans say he was!

Frodo knows that Sam is calling himself hard Gaffer names, apparently without being told. How well they know each other!
“Dearest hobbit, friend of friends”. This is the first time Frodo has called Sam friend, isn’t it? Sam not on the list of Frodo's friends in the first of FOTR, but he has made it now.

This is also the first time Frodo has declared that he does not expect that they will return. What do you make of Sam taking Frodo’s hand and letting his tears fall on it? Was he moved by Frodo’s declaration of their friendship, or was he saying that he agreed with Frodo’s assessment and accepted his fate?

Sam had to BEG Gollum not to leave Frodo behind. Yeah, Gollum was a good guy, yeppers he certainly was…

Gollum was actually under ORDERS from Sauron! That is why he was released from Barad-dur!

Was the great heaviness in Sam’s body just weariness, or was it the Ring attempting to help Gollum carry out his orders? What or who was warning Sam not to let on what he’d heard? Was it his good hobbit-sense or was it possibly the Valar?
Frodo’s burden is lighter when he wakes. The Valar are DEFINATLY helping out here.
Sam is grumpier with Gollum because he knows things Frodo doesn’t. Frodo didn’t hear the debate.

Chapter 3 tomorrow. I HAVE to get started on other things.

Hugs,
Rach



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on February 14, 2006, 08:04:29 pm

You two are blowing me away. I read TTT over a month ago, pretty much in two sittings, but I can't imagine going into a discussion of such detail as you have in these last two pages.

Absolutely fascinating reading.....both of you. :o

(I want to read "The Silmarillion" again. Love the Valar.)




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 14, 2006, 08:21:07 pm

I'm conducting a readthrough of the Silm on my board right now. I haven't read it more than twice before so I'm still picking up an awful lot.

Interesting how that stuff relates to LOTR.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on February 14, 2006, 08:30:57 pm

I've read "Sil" twice. The second time was after I'd bought the Middle Earth Atlas book and it was a whole different ballgame then. I spent ages referring to that book and reading about everything that was mentioned in "Sil." Took a while, but it was fascinating reading them together.

Then I did the same thing with "The Hobbit" and LOTR. ::)

I haven't been making notes during this most recent reading of LOTR. Celebrian....you are, and very excellent ones, too, I might add. I'm just reading for the pure pleasure of it I guess.

But I love reading the dissection by the two of you.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 14, 2006, 09:46:36 pm

Thanks Yeux. :D I didn't start off taking notes, but then by the time it reached time for discussion I didn't remember much of the detail that i had noticed and found interesting. So, I started jotting down notes as I read (or realistically, after I've read a few pages and need to do something else). That's actually been working really well. I kind of wish more people were doing it so there would be more discussion (other than just Rach and me). Hint, hint. ;D

I've only read the Simarillion once. I think that would be very interesting to discuss, but probably not until fall, since LOTR will take the rest of spring pretty much and I will be traveling for a chunk of the summer.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 19, 2006, 10:47:50 pm

OK, I was the last to post, but it's been 5 days and this is new stuff, about the current chapters, so I decided to post again anyway.

I actually have more notes for these chapters than I've had before, so I may not type them all up tonight, but I thought I'd get discussion started at least.

Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

Sam looks at sleeping Frodo and sees the light in him and an older chiseled face with the quote "I love him, whether or no." which I think has been quoted here before.

This chapter has the Sam line "Po-ta-toes" that appears in the film and in a fan made amusing video clip that I saw a long time ago. ;D

Gollum seemed surprised by the idea of cooking, but has he really forgotten that? Or not seen others, including the Fellowship when he followed them, cook food?

The meeting with Faramir is very different in the book from the film. The hobbits are not prisoners. Frodo is quicker to mention Boromir and also mentions the riddle from the dream Faramir (and once Boromir) had. (I like the Faramir of the book much better than in the film, although I liked him there too.)

The guards left with the hobbits, Mablung and Damrod speak an elven tongue and are said to be Dunedain. Are they? That confused me. I thought all the Dunedain were in the north these days.

Sam saw the Oliphaunt! :D (How did something that big disappear?)

Window on the West

Sam is very defensive and protective when Faramir seems to distrust Frodo, but Frodo seems to understand better and doesn't over-react. Sam was brave to stand up in front of so many strong men to speak.

I found it interesting how Frodo and Faramir learn from each other and learn to trust the stories from certain details that they know and mention.

Faramir says Frodo has "an elvish air." He also describes a light from the boat that Boromir's body was in - like the light in Frodo and the light from the elven rope when Frodo was blind.

Faramir is very wise. He figures out a lot that was unsaid.

The hobbits were blindfolded to go to Henneth Annun as they had been in Lorien. Men descended from the Numenoreans have elf-like qualities so it seemed sort of parallel to me. The weren't prisoners as they were in the film, though.

Why did Sam feel he needed to stay awake before supper? Is it because he still doesn't trust Faramir? Not that staying awake and being exhausted would help him much with all those men around.

Looking out the window in silence before the meal is like saying grace. There is little religious ritual as obvious as this elsewhere that I remember at the moment.

Sam's description of Galadriel was lovely; e said too much with mention of the Ring, but perhaps it was "meant" to be so. He is as usual too hard on himslef about the poetry and his big mouth.

Faramir's "chance to show his quality" is said int he film. Is that by Denethor? So in a different context, but the same line. It is very wise of him not to desire the ring. Something that makes him special, similar to Aragorn who is Dunedain.

It was brave of Frodo and Sam to pull their swords when surrounded by so many men (not that they would have had much choice if Faramir really did want to take the Ring from Frodo).

Frodo says "certainly gardeners are honored" in the Shire. :D

Sam says that Faramir reminds him of Gandalf - as Denethor says, he is a student of wizards.

Faramir says "I had no lure or desire to do other than I have done." Has no desire for the Ring knowing what it is. Interesting that it has no power over him. But, as we discussed a while back, he doesn't desire power for himself, like the hobbits, so he isn't affected by it.

The Forbidden Pool

Interesting descriptions of Gollum's eyes: pale and shining as Smeagol; green when angry as Gollum; blank and pale when looking at Faramir.

Faramir says "some other time beyond the vision of the Seeing-Stones of Numenor" for when he might see Frodo again. I thought that was an interesting reference. Sort of like seeing him in heaven or wherever men go after they die in this world.

Faramir is so different in the films. He's much harsher with Frodo and Sam, not quite as thoughtful. As I said above, I like the book Faramir much better.

Phew!

I actually have one more thing that I want to put out there, but it's a little more thematic, I think (and maybe obvious to everyone else, but became really clear to me here), so I'll leave that for a separate post after someone else posts here. ;)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 20, 2006, 08:26:37 am

Good post, Celebrian.

I feel hesitant to post for some reason, but here it goes.

Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Frodo must have enjoyed hearing Sam laugh again.

Sam still has hope for a return journey and is already planning for it.

Sam sees the light shine through Frodo here and not for the first time. Gollum also seems to see something, but he shuns what he sees. Does he see the light as well, or can only Sam see it? I think that you have to "have eyes" to see it, in other words, only certain people can. Sam can, so can Faramir and perhaps Gandalf.

Sam’s worried about Frodo’s weight loss and wants to feed him something substantial.

Sam is being very nice to Gollum here, offering to cook for him in exchange for hunting. Sam can’t go in search of food himself because he is afraid to leave Frodo alone, but he knows that Frodo needs more to eat.

Sam tries to get Gollum to eat some stew. He’s NOT being cruel to Gollum! As Tolkien said earlier, Sam’s words are harder than his heart.

It is actually FRODO who calls Gollum a “gangrel creature”.

I LOVE Sam’s though speech here about the fallen Southron he sees from the tree. Here, Tolkien is demonstrating Sam’s growth as a hobbit being, for now, he can empathize with a stranger, understand that an enemy is possibly not so different from himself. It’s something he would never have learned in the Shire. I think this is one of Sam’s most wonderful moments and I HATE that PJ gave it to Faramir in the TTT EE!

The Window on the West

Frodo stood proudly as any man before Faramir’s questioning . Sam sees his master as equal to any man.

Sam knows better than anyone what Frodo has been through and stands up to defend him against the men. Brave Sam!

I could smack Faramir for talking to Sam as if he were stupid. He isn’t, but Faramir learns that by the end. Why doesn’t Frodo stand up for Sam?

I have always wondered about the dynamic in this chapter. Suddenly Frodo has gone from calling Sam, “friend of friends” to “my servant” I though before that it sounded like he was standing up for Sam but now that I read it again, it doesn’t.

I really think he wanted Faramir not to bother Sam, though the way it's worded doesn't really sound that way.

“He who will not be named was overthrown..” Me thinks JK Rowling reads Tolkien! LOL

Blindfolded again. This is getting to be a habit. Would that make it a hobbit habit? :P

Frodo makes much of Boromir’s bravery to his kin. He is being very kind and comforting.

Faramir says Minas Tirith is a “springless autumn”. Doesn’t this remind you of Rivendell?

Celebrian, this is one of my old notes. Note the similarities to what you thought.

Sam shows his poetic abilities in his description of Galadriel, even as he is protesting that he has none.
Sam’s love of things elvish gets him into trouble here, but I kind of wonder if it wasn’t meant to happen. Poor Sam is SO upset and embarrassed.


Sam is hard on himself because that is how his father taught him to be.

AH! Faramir thinks Sam’s slip was fated too, so of course, that is what Tolkien intended. I hope that made poor Sam feel better.

Faramir says they are not good judges of men, but if you think about it, Frodo and Sam have EVERY REASON to suspect Faramir. His brother DID try to take the Ring!

Notice what Faramir says here. He says he does not wish to see the Ring because it might tempt him and he might not measure up to hobbits. I REALLY REALLY love that!

Faramir calls Sam praiseworthy. I wish the Gaffer could hear that!

The Forbidden Pool


Faramir is rather polite when he wakes Frodo. He doesn’t want to be threatening. Very unlike Farfromthebook-amir.

Just the fact that Frodo was gone woke Sam, so of course got up to follow. Frodo is NOT getting away from Sam!

Faramir is a bit upset and shocked to hear that Gollum carried the Ring. He would be even MORE surprised and shocked if he knew more.

Frodo threatens to kill Gollum with the Ring!

Gollum looks miserable in front of Faramir, but only because he is hiding his malice. Remember how proud Frodo looked in the same situation?

The men of Gondor have rumors of Shelob, but no details. Isn’t Tolkien good at building tension?

The Nazgul were kings of Numenorian descent.

Ok a couple of things in reference to what you said, Celebrian.


Quote:
The guards left with the hobbits, Mablung and Damrod speak an elven tongue and are said to be Dunedain. Are they? That confused me. I thought all the Dunedain were in the north these days.


No, they aren't all in the north. Many of them are there partially because they lived there and partially because they have been protecting the Shire for many many years, at Gandalf's request. The Men of Gondor are of Numenorian descent, at least those of the aristocratic houses. There were the DUnedain of Gondor, but they dwindled more quickly than their kin to the north.

Here's a quote from Foster, page 121."By the time of the WR (War of the Ring) although Gondor was still strong and some of her Dunedain were still noble and wise,the Dunedain of Gondor had wained considerably."

Not all Men are of Numenorian descent. Men arose in Middle Earth with the First Dawning of the Sun (Long after the Elves). Only some of them went to Numenor. Numenorians were a rather special race. They had long lifetimes (Aragorn lived over 200 years and at that time the lifespans had dwindled. The Rohirrim only lived regular lifetimes)

Hugs,
Rach - who has made too long a post again











Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 20, 2006, 10:01:28 pm

Rach - I assume you felt hesitant to post because you were saying nice things about Sam? Please don't. I would miss your insights if you didn't post here and I'm sure others would too. And, i don't think mine was much shorter than yours (if at all), so I don't think you need to apologize for the length either. Or maybe I should apologize too. But, frankly, since you and I are maintaining almost all the discussion here on the discussion thread, I think it's OK if our posts are long. ;)


Quote:
“He who will not be named was overthrown..” Me thinks JK Rowling reads Tolkien! LOL


I thought that too, but didn't write it down so of course I forgot to post it. ;D

As for why Frodo doesn't stand up for Sam and goes back to servant rather than friend, I'm not really sure and I haven't reread it, but my guess is that it has to do with being in an unfamiliar and potentially dangerous situation. Probably it's easier to just give the simplest answers (Sam is his servant after all and Sam's behavior toward Frodo does tend to show that) and not get into the complexities about how despite their unequal status, they are genuinely friends. Also, Frodo is older and more experienced and does a somewhat better job in these conversations with saying enough, but not too much so maintaining his role as the "leader" makes some sense. I don't think it is in any way an indication that Frodo doesn't respect Sam or anything like that.


And, now, onto something that kind of hit me over the head in these chapters and maybe was obvious to everyone else before now, but which I don't think we've discussed.

We have talked about the light/good vs. dark/evil symbolism. But, to add to that we also have west/light/good and east/dark/evil. So basically the west, where the sunset happens is good and the east (sunrise) is evil. So I was thinking about how in the time of the story, it is the sunset of peoples and things in Middle Earth.

Faramir talks about how it is the sunset of Gondor and the Numenoreans. "We are a failing people, a springless autumn."

He also lays out the tiers of Men:
High/Men of West/Numenoreans
Middle/Men of Twilight/Rohirrim and kin
Wild /Men of Darkness/Haradrim, Easterlings

and says that Gondor is becoming Men of Twilight.

So, we have the sun (light) in the west, ME in twilight and the east already dark. So, as the third age is ending, this period of ME history (and its peoples) is sinking into the sunset in the west.

It's not only Men, of course. The elves are heading into the west. And, the Ents are aging, with no entlings to replace them.

Of course, the ending of this day (or age) is not the end. A new day can dawn with changes in Middle Earth in the Fourth Age.

I'm not sure that I presented this well here, but it all made sense in my head. ;D Anyway, just a theme that carries through the story.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 20, 2006, 10:14:54 pm

I've always felt, before the last reading, that Frodo was protecting Sam. It was as if he was saying,"DOn't bother him! Talk to ME!" , like Frodo was standing between Faramir, who could be a dangerous enemy if he chose, and Sam.But in this last reading it didn't sound that way.

The Gondorian leaders were of Numenorian descent but had intermarried with "lesser men" and their life spans and honor was failing. I'm not sure I like the entire, "breeding is everything" aspect of this, but it's certainly what TOlkien seems tothink at times, and not at others.

I hope I read your post right. I'm so upset at 24 right now, I could just scream! lol

Hugs,
Rach



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 22, 2006, 05:57:53 pm

Well, I don't think I expressed it well, but I was trying to focus less on Men specifically (although they are a good example) and focus more broadly on it being the sunset (end) of the Third Age and what is good there. Then, a new "day" would start with the Fourth Age, the Age of Men. So, some of the older races, like elves and Ents are leaving ME or dying out. Men are becoming less elf-like (I hope that makes sense - I think the High, Men of the West, were more elf-like than the others).

So, that is why what is good and light is always in the west (sunset) and what is evil and dark is in the east.

(Still not sure I'm doing a good job at this. I think it might be easier in person or if someone else was attempting to express it and make it make sense to others.)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on February 22, 2006, 06:22:30 pm

You are doing a wonderful job! I'm just too preoccupied with computer problems to concentrate as I should! You are perfectly right. It is the end of the time of the elves and the beginning of the days of Men.

I have often wondered if the dwindling of the elves isn't partially shown by the lack of children among them. You never hear of YOUNG elf children, only adult ones.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on February 28, 2006, 10:44:21 pm

I'm not sure I really have time for this right now, but I want to try to get some discussion started about the last 4 chapters in TTT before we start on ROTK discussion Sunday or Monday (yes, I'm being optimistic that there will be some discussion and maybe even more than just Rach and me - I hope, I hope).

Journey to the Cross-Roads

Faramir says "The Sun will soon rise above the shadow." Is that just to say that day is coming? Or a portent of the light that will soon rise over the shadow of Mordor?

Frodo comments that Elrond said he would find friendship unlooked for and he did. :D

When Faramir left, woods seemed empty "as if a dream had passed." How different Faramir is in film. Here he also provides them food which didn't happen in film.

Gollum disappears for hours - off to visit Shelob, right?

They see the King's Crown at the cross-roads from the light in the west (again with the west/light) foreshadowing return of the king in the west?

Stairs of Cirith Ungol

"but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then another, a huge ghostly head leering into the night." It grips all three. Is that the silent watcher? or what? And, what exactly are the silent watchers?

Frodo is despairing that he is too late; worried about Faramir.

They talk about the old stories. And, how they are a continuation of the story of Beren and the Silmaril through the Phial of Galadriel with the light of the Silmaril. (We actually talked a bit about this on the comment box recently where Ed gave a bit of this background.)

Gollum is described again as spider-like and Sam calls him a "sneak" and he goes on about it.

Shelob's Lair

Frodo and Sam are together here (Frodo never sends Sam away as in the film), they even hold hands (I'm thinking brotherly here, not gay).

Sam is the one who remembers the phial here despite Frodo checking it in the Morgul Vale.

What exactly does "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima" mean?

"(His cat he calls her, but she owns him not)" is a quote about Sauron and Shelob in my book. Shouldn't it be "he owns her not"?

In film, Frodo and Gollum fight outside lair, here it's Sam which lets Shelob get Frodo.

Gollum is face to face with a furious enemy, little less than his own size." So Gollum is bigger than Frodo and Sam? I thought of him as same or smaller. Sam fought well against Gollum.

Some references to Silmarillion, Ungoliant, Beren, etc. here.

Frodo was rather rash running ahead, despite blue Sting and knowing orcs were likely in the tower. Not really like him up to this point.

The Choices of Master Samwise

Sam fights like a desparate creature over "its fallen mate" which shows the strength of the bond with Frodo.

Hears elves and remote voice telling him to get the phial. Even speaks elvish (what does the poem mean?). Is that specifically from Galadriel?

He has the line "Don't go where I can't follow." :'(

Is in the scene of himself that he saw in Galadriel's Mirror.

he's very hard on himself, but he's doing what he has to do.

The Ring weighs him down immediately, then he regains his strength to walk. He puts on the Ring as orcs approach (is that more guidance from afar since there was "no thought or decision"?)

Why can't the Eye find Sam once he has the Ring on in Mordor? I wouldn't think the rocks could hide him. Is Sauron just too distracted with war and such to really focus on it?

Does the Ring give more powers in Mordor than elsewhere? Sam's much improved hearing and understanding orc speech seems new, but maybe Frodo just didn't have the opportunity to test those.

I love when Sam smiles at the description of him as a powerful Elf. ;D

He is hard on himself (again) for trusting his head when he should have trusted his heart. His heart is truly his strength. Which is not to say that his head is lacking, but his real strength is still his heart. And, that's why we love him, right? :D

Phew! That's it for now.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 01, 2006, 08:15:55 am

Wonderful comments, Celebrian! I went to sleep last night thinking that I neded to get here and here you are!

The Choices of Master Samwise is my FAVORITE chapter in the trilogy! (It's every Sam fan's favorite...LOL) so of course I have to discuss this part.

Your notes are so good that I'm not going to just post mine. Let me see if I can answer some of your questions first.


Quote:
Or a portent of the light that will soon rise over the shadow of Mordor?

It sure seems to me to be a portent. (I love that word!) Faramir is saying that good WILL win.


Quote:
Gollum disappears for hours - off to visit Shelob, right?

Probably, or finding something to eat.


Quote:
Is that the silent watcher? or what? And, what exactly are the silent watchers?


No, the Silent Watchers are two statues that stand, one on each side of the gates to Cirith Ungol. They are threee headed, with one head pointing in each direction other than backward. What you are talking about is the light at the top of the tower, the red light that Sam talks about later.


I agree. Frodo and Sam are not, in my opinion, gay. Tolkien was a DEVOUT Catholic and the last thing he would have done is make his heroes gay. This is what Sean and Elijah decided in playing the roles and I think they were spot on. Tolkien was talking about the kind of love that arises from shared embattlement and common trials. It wasn't sexual or romantic in any way.

But if people want to interpret it that way, ok. I just have to say that Tolkien certainly never intended it that way.
[quote]
What exactly does "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima" mean?[/quote]
"Hail Earendil brightest of the Stars!" roughly...I've seen prettier trnslations but that's the gist of it.


Quote:
Gollum is face to face with a furious enemy, little less than his own size." So Gollum is bigger than Frodo and Sam? I thought of him as same or smaller. Sam fought well against Gollum.


THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I keep telling people this and they look at me like I'm just some poor besotted Sam fan! Gollum is descended from the Stoor hobbits who settled long the banks of the Anduin. Sam is Harfoot, the smallest and most numerous of the hobbit tribes. Stoors are the heaviest built of the three hobbit clans, though not the tallest. The tallest are the Fallohides, the aristocratic hobbits. Frodo, Bilbo, Merry , and Pippin are all Fallohides. ALL of these hobbits would be taller than Sam,unless Pippin had a lot more growing to do, and Gollum would be more powerful than both Frodo AND Sam!! PJ has the sizes ALL WRONG in the movie, but that's ok. The movie rose above it.


Quote:
Does the Ring give more powers in Mordor than elsewhere?

Yes. The closer they come to Mordor, the more powerful the Ring becomes. Also the heavier it becomes. The point of view of the story here has changed to Sam. There's a reason Tolkien did this. The Ring is growing so powerful that it is all Frodo can do to carry it. His mind is becoming absorbed by it, so Sam MUST start bearing the burden of telling the story. He also becomes the "leader" of the two, making decsions, etc.

Ahh! My favorite chapter! The Choices of Master Samwise is SAM'S CHAPTER! Here he finishes his evolution from sidekick to hero. I LOVE this chapter and hate that it got left out of the movie.

As you say, they liken Sam to an animal defending its mate. THAT’S where the slashers get the idea! That is SO not what Tolkien meant! But you can see where they get it.

Sam defending Frodo is a fury greater than Shelob had ever known in her long years. I have a little write up about Shelob I can post here if anyone is interested in her history and origins. The scope of the evil Sam faces here is quite unfathomable. Shelob's mother helped Melkor kill the Two Trees of Valinor so this is one MIGHTY spider, being faced down by a TINY hobbit. PJ DID get the sizes here about right.

Sam couldn’t have stabbed Shelob’s thick hide, had she not thrust her body down on Sting herself.

Sam must be covered with her poison when she jumps away. She was oozing green just like in the movie. If you watch, you will see icky green stuff on Sam’s hands as he pulls the web off Frodo.

Again, the memory of elves or something else helps the hobbits, and Sam speaks in a language he doesn’t know.

“As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion, the glass blazed suddenly like a white torch on his hand.” Obviously, it is the courage and spirit of the bearer that causes the phial to burn more brightly.

”Don’t go where I can’t follow!” My very favorite line Sam speaks.

Sam is so upset that he passed out here. At least, that is how I take “ night came into his heart and he knew no more”

When Sam realizeshe must go, his first thought it to pursue vengence. I think that’s pretty normal in this situation. I think most of us would think of that. But Sam’s good sense prevails, allowing him to resist the temptation. “That was not what he had set out to do.” Sam is SO FOCUSED here! I don’t think I would. have this kind of sense.    

Next he contemplates suicide, so they could be dead together. He thinks of different ways he could do the deed but here his sense of duty prevails. “That was not what he had set out to do.” Notice how Tolkien repeats virtually the same phrase. It shows Sam’s determination and courage.

The he realizes that he must continue the mission. The gaffer’s steady beating of his self esteem almost ruins the day, and his dire lessons of “putting one self forward”. But Sam’s practical intelligent mind comes through once more and he realizes that the ring MUST be destroyed.

Sam is so loving and respectful when he takes the Ring, kissing Frodo on the forehead. Is it possible that this fact, that the Ring was taken in love, ALSO helps him resist its temptations?

Sam asks Galadriel that he be allowed to come back and find his master’s body again. He doesn’t ask for his own safety.

Sam puts on the Ring. I wish he had done that in the movie. I was hoping for it.

Putting on the ring actually makes you more afraid.

As soon as he realizes the orcs have found Frodo, Sam abandons all thoughts of the quest and goes back to his master’s side.

The question I would like to ask is this, which was the right choice? Was Sam wrong to try and go on with the quest, or was he wrong to go back? In the HOME books, an early version of the story line has Frodo remaining in the tower, and SAM taking the ring to Mt Doom, battle Gollum, and finally destroying it. (If THAT bit doesn't start some converstion, nothing will. LOL)

The orcs don’t seem to know what a hobbit is, thought Saruman told his orcs what halflings were. They say Frodo looks “elvish but small.”

The orcs know about Sam and say he is more dangerous than any rebel that has ever walked since the Great Siege.

They have not seen Sam, only the things he has done and they him a great elf warrior. This is a good lesson in not judging by appearances.

OH gosh! They think Sam thinks nothing of Frodo and just left him to die. What a thing for poor Sam to hear!

I'm sorry this is so long. It is, after all, my favorite chapter. I can post the info on Shelob if you like.

Hugs,
Rach









Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 01, 2006, 11:15:55 am


Quote:
Gollum would be more powerful than both Frodo AND Sam!!


Hmmm. Interesting. Although, at this point, Gollum is so scrawny, eaten away by having the Ring so long and hasn't had a lot to eat, so I think there is some legitimate question about whether he is currently more powerful than the others. But, thanks for the explanation. I knew he was a stoor, but I couldn't remember the details of the different groups of hobbits.

I think Gollum did go to see Shelob because the orcs talk about having seen him a couple of times and I think that was one of them.

Does Shelob's poison affect Sam since it is on him? I don't recall anything about that right now.


Quote:
Sam is so loving and respectful when he takes the Ring, kissing Frodo on the forehead. Is it possible that this fact, that the Ring was taken in love, ALSO helps him resist its temptations?


Interesting. There is also the lack of interest in personal power that we talked about earlier.


Quote:
In the HOME books, an early version of the story line has Frodo remaining in the tower, and SAM taking the ring to Mt Doom, battle Gollum, and finally destroying it. (If THAT bit doesn't start some converstion, nothing will. LOL)


Wow that is an interesting version to think about. I think the way it is written, there is quite a lot of question about who is "the" hero. The answer really is that there are multiple heroes in LOTR. But, if this early version was the one written, it would much more clearly be Sam. Even as written, Sam is a hero because there is no way that Frodo could have completed the quest without Sam's help.

Just looked at the time and I gotta run. Thanks for the responses and the write-up Rach.

I hope some of the other readers will pop in and comment on some of this. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 01, 2006, 11:34:04 am


Quote:
Although, at this point, Gollum is so scrawny, eaten away by having the Ring so long and hasn't had a lot to eat, so I think there is some legitimate question about whether he is currently more powerful than the others.


Yes, but the Ring passion ALSO lent him strength. Besides, they are getting rather scrawny themselves by this point in time. Lots of walking, low rations.

No, I don't see any evidence of the poison effecting Sam in any way. I think it has to be injected.


Quote:
There is also the lack of interest in personal power that we talked about earlier
.

Which is why the hobbits are the only beings in Middle Earth who COULD have destroyed the ring.

As to heroes, yes there are lots of heroes. Tolkien said Sam was the main hero, but that very statement indicates there are other heroes as well.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on March 02, 2006, 11:01:48 pm

Wow! :o Reading through this whole page has been quite the education! I have really enjoyed reading both or your comments and insights, Rach and Celebrian. I hope to post here more regularly especially once you start on ROTK. Will that be soon?

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: magicdancer on March 03, 2006, 12:09:46 am

Yeah, same question.....when do we start with ROTK? I'll try to get back into the swing of things then.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 03, 2006, 09:45:06 am

Actually, we are reading the first 3 chapters in ROTK this week so discussion on them may start as early as Sunday or Monday. The schedule is in the Club thread, thanks to Cristiel.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 07, 2006, 02:11:05 pm

I'm not sure how many days need to pass before I'm allowed to make a new post, but since this one will actually be discussion on the first 3 chapters of ROTK, I'm going ahead with a separate post.

Minas Tirith

Are the men Gandalf talks to at Meduseld captains sent from Helm's Deep? Guards? Elderly men still there?

The beacons were lit before Gandalf and Pippin get to Minas Tirith.

Pippin tends to say too much (like mentioning Boromir's death to the men they meet outside the city).

Gandalf says Rohan will come thanks to "Gandalf Stormcrow" (I thought he was only called that in Rohan, but sounds like Gondor also).

Frodo was in Ithilien as Pippin and Gandalf get to Minas Tirith.

How did the message that Pippin saw Boromir die get to Denethor before Gandalf and Pippin arrived on Shadowfax? Who knew soon enough to get there first?

Denethor heard Boromir's horn, as had Faramir, on the day Boromir died.

Gandalf is also a steward; he doesn't fail "if anything pass, through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come." This ties in with the whole sunset/end of an age stuff i posted earlier.

Gandalf says: Blood of Westernesse runs true in Denethor and Faramir.

Beregond comments on too few children in Minas Tirith (Pippin saw lots of empty houses). More on the sunset of Gondor and Beregond comments that Night is long when Nazgul flies by.

Pippin's line "I wish it was over for good or ill" is said to Beregond, not Ganalf as in the film.

The Passing of the Grey Company

Merry is feeling like useless baggage. :(

How did Galadriel know that Aragorn was in Rohan so she could send the message to Rivendell to send the Dunedain there?

Merry offers his sword to Theoden at Helm's Deep unlike in the EE where it is in Edoras.

Rangers have silver star brooches, just as the Fellowship had the leaf ones from Galadriel. So Aragorn should have both.

Aragorn says to Eomer "in battle we may yet meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor should stand between." This foreshadows Aragorn's arrival from Osgiliath on the other side of the Dark Army from Minas Tirith.

I like Halbarad's line "A little people, but of great worth are the Shirefolk." :)

Eowyn fears "a cage" line is at Dunharrow (in film isn't it in the hall at Edoras?).

Unlike the film, they take horses onto the Paths of the Dead.

The Muster of Rohan

Merry is concerned about his friends, but almost forgot about Frodo and Sam.

Brego and son Baldor went to Door and old man said "The way is shut. . .until the time comes." Aragorn's coming is the time spoken of. They saw Baldor's skeleton inside as they passed through.

The Red Arrow (which has a red tip) is the sign of immediate need in Gondor, not the beacons which had already been lit.

Darkness Falls. No sunlight even during the day.

Who's in charge after Eowyn leaves? I assume there's someone since I can't believe she'd completely shirk her responsibilties and abandon her people.

Eowyn as Dernhelm - Merry doesn't recognize her.

Orcs are marching into Rohan in the north, but it's too late to turn aside. (There is other fighting farther north with the elves and dwarves as Legolas alluded to when Aragorn's kinsmen showed up and Gimli said he'd like some of their kinsmen also.)

I think that's it for now. Whew.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on March 07, 2006, 09:36:43 pm

I just deleted my last post so that I would not be double posting. I hope that is not unethical. ;D It was only a short note saying that I would post later.

I enjoyed your summary and comments, Celebrian. I wanted to comment or ask questions on a few of them.

Pippin tends to say too much (like mentioning Boromir's death to the men they meet outside the city).

LOL. I noticed this, too. Poor Pippin. His mouth seems to get him in trouble a lot. (mine has, too, occasionally!)

Denethor heard Boromir's horn, as had Faramir, on the day Boromir died.

I never quite understood this. Was it a vision? Was the horn really that loud. I always felt like I was missing some key element here.


Merry is concerned about his friends, but almost forgot about Frodo and Sam.

I noticed that and wondered if it was "denial." Sometimes when thinking about something is very painful, we tend to push it out of our minds, at least I do.

My own personal thoughts are that the book is different from the movie in several ways. I also like the book Merry a bit more than the movie Merry, though I liked him in the movie, too. Pippin is a dear in both. I want to hug him as one wants to hold a naughty, though good hearted child. :)

Those are my only thoughts for now. I might be back later with more.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 07, 2006, 09:46:54 pm

Thanks for commenting Rose. :D

My interpretation of Faramir and Denethor hearing Boromir's horn is that it's kind of a magical link, similar to the connection between Frodo and Gandalf at times when they are apart. I don't think the horn was literally loud enough to be heard so far away, so sort of a dream, but like magical realism or something.

I think Merry may very well have been in denial about thinking about Frodo and Sam and where they are going and what they have to do. Also, he has seen all the other Fellowship members more recently and has a somewhat better idea about what they are up to, so it makes some sense that he's thinking of them first. I like the book Merry much more than the film Merry also. In the film, he has more of the humor and light-heartedness of Pippin which is OK and enjoyable, but he has more depth in the books.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on March 07, 2006, 10:40:57 pm

Yes, I completely agree with your thought on the book Merry. The movie makes him take on more of Pippin's personality, which makes for very funny moments in the movie but don't show Tolkien's Merry as accurately. And I agree that Merry probably didn't think as much about Frodo and Sam since he had not seen them in awhile. I am sure they were always in the back of his mind but he obviously didn't think about them as much.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts about the horn. That makes a lot of sense.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 08, 2006, 09:57:58 am

One more thing occurred to me this morning. I had commented in TTT about how Faramir figured out quite a bit based on what Frodo said and what he didn't say. Denethor does the same thing in his conversation with Pippin. This shows that they are alike and that they both have the blood of Westernesse in them, as Gandalf said.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on March 09, 2006, 10:12:43 pm

That is a really good point, Celebrian. I would not have thought of that. Faramir is his father's son, though a wiser member of the blood of Westernese. Denethor took information and used it unwisely (basically did nothing with it) while Faramir used the information he gleaned from Frodo wisely.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 10, 2006, 08:22:03 am

Celebrian, I think you're right on the "magical" element of the horn call. So small a horn couldn't really be heard, unless there was an emotional or "magical" element involved.


Quote:
I like the book Merry much more than the film Merry also. In the film, he has more of the humor and light-heartedness of Pippin which is OK and enjoyable, but he has more depth in the books.

Merry has always been my second favorite character, next to Sam. I love his organizational skills and levelheadedness. Dom was PERFECT for the role, but to me the only time book-Merry really appears is 1) in FOTR when he comes up behind Frodo and says "What was that thing?" or something like that and Frodo tells him he and Sam must get to Bree and 2) On the Pelannor when Pip finds him and he says, "Are you going to leve me?" which sounds a lot like when, in the book, he asks Pip, "Are you going to bury me?"

Pippin’s offering of his service to Denethor may have seemed little to both himself and the Steward, but this is the son of a nobleman in his own land. It is actually a rather high offering, but once again we see people judging others by appearance.

The book says that Pippin saw a likeness between Gandalf and Denethor. What was the likeness he saw?

Did you notice that Pippin saw a gleam in Denethor's eye when the Seeing Stones were mentioned?

I think when Gandalf mentions being a steward, he is reminding Denethor subtly of his place, that he is NOT the king and never will be.

Thinking of the battle, Pippin feels like a pawn “on the wrong chessboard.”Looks to me like he's thinking he should be home.

Merry shows HIS good hobbit sense here in realizing that even if he escape a battle, there was no where for him to go. He knew he had no choice but to fight.
Merry shows great courage in being ready to die for Theoden, and good common sense in being glad it isn’t now. LOL

Before riding of to the Paths of the Dead, Aragorn reassures Merry that they won’t forget him. I think he recognizes that Merry will feel very lost and left behind. Merry is the only one of the Fellowship left completely alone with strangers. Thanks goodness Theoden is kind to him.

The Edain have grown to appreciate the hobbits they guard, and Aragorn loves them for their courage.
Aragorn is the rightful owner of the palantir and had the right to look into it.

Aragorn says that Sauron saw him in another guise. How did the Dark Lord see the rightful king?

The Stone of Erech was thought to be a meteor, but actually it had been brought from the ruin of Numenor.

Chapter 3

Merry hears words in the language of Rohan that he almost recognizes. This alludes to the fact that the language of Rohan and Hobbitish are very similar in nature and probably origin.


It is 102 leagues from Dunharrow to Minas Tirith. A league varies from 2.4 to 4.6 miles therefore the distance between the two cities is between 245 and 470 miles. Given that they make it in a couple of days, I am leaning toward the lesser amount.

I've tried to cut my post down from my usual. I'm sorry if i've been overwhelming any one.

Hugs,
Rach



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Rose on March 10, 2006, 10:37:49 pm

Not overwhelming at all, Rach. I really appreciate reading the posts of those of you who have more literary insight than my concrete mind can come up with.

You know, I also wondered what likeness Pippin saw in Gandalf and Denethor. Gandalf is obviously wiser and nobler. I wonder if they both had a certain pride or a certain noble way they carried themselves.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 10, 2006, 11:13:20 pm

Perhaps it was the air of leadership about them. It has been said that Denethor love Boromir best because Boromir was UNLIKE him, and Faramir least because he WAS like his father. That's a bit confusing, but if Faramir was Gandalf's pupil, and Denethor was like Faramir then couldn't Denthor have been like Gandalf?

ACK! ACK! That sounds too much like math! Geometry flashback! ACK ACK

Gotta go....

Hugs,
Rach - who actually did well in geometry but still...it's MATH!!!

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 11, 2006, 09:11:55 pm

Hey! I was a math major in school. What's wrong with math? ;D

I should comment more but I am desparately trying to catch up on things due to incredibly little internet time, so I'll be back.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 12, 2006, 04:34:58 am

LOL ! I was an English/Political Science/Social Science major and there's nothing wrong with math. I'm just scared of it! LOL

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 12, 2006, 10:49:33 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=330#msg989559 date=1141996923]
The book says that Pippin saw a likeness between Gandalf and Denethor. What was the likeness he saw?[/quote]

I thought it was a certain age, power, and dignity, but that was just my interpretation.


Quote:
Did you notice that Pippin saw a gleam in Denethor's eye when the Seeing Stones were mentioned?


I didn't write it down, but now that you mention it, yes I do remember noticing that. ;)


Quote:
I think when Gandalf mentions being a steward, he is reminding Denethor subtly of his place, that he is NOT the king and never will be.


Probably true. When I read it I took it as face value because Gandalf's role really is as a steward and not to take power for himself. But, it can certainly be a bit of both.


Quote:
Aragorn says that Sauron saw him in another guise. How did the Dark Lord see the rightful king?


I think he saw him as the king and not as the ranger that he still is at this point. And, probably as more like Elendil since he has the sword and Sauron would certainly remember Elendil. ;)


Quote:
The Stone of Erech was thought to be a meteor, but actually it had been brought from the ruin of Numenor.


I think I'm forgetting something. Who thought it was a meteor?

Not at all overwhelming Rach. Please don't leave stuff out that you'd like to mention. I am finding it very interesting. :)

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 13, 2006, 11:22:07 am


Quote:
I think I'm forgetting something. Who thought it was a meteor?


I was referring to this quote. It's on page 53 in my copy.

"Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor"

I take this to mean that some of the men in the area believed the stone had fallen from the sky (a meteor is the picture I get when I read it) but the ones who rememebered the old knowledge knew it had actually been brought from Numenor.

I could certainly be wrong, but that's my interpretation.


Quote:
think he saw him as the king and not as the ranger that he still is at this point. And, probably as more like Elendil since he has the sword and Sauron would certainly remember Elendil.


I'm sure he would, and since the Stones were originally given to Elendil, they did, by rights, belong to Aragorn, if to any one. He had the right and the power to use them.

In reading the Silm right now, I'm getting a fresh look at the history of Aragorn. It's fascinating really, though for a superior being, elves DO fuss a lot! LOL We are about to get to Numenor. I can't wait to reread it. I haven't read the Silm since the movies and having the visuals puts a different light on things, I think.

Hugs,
Rach



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 13, 2006, 09:35:04 pm

Thanks for the quote explaining the meteor. I think your interpretation is correct. I just didn't recall the quote. (My mind is a sieve.) I read the Silm after seeing the films, but I had quite a tough time with it. In fact, hubby and I both found that it was a good insomnia cure at parts when we were having trouble sleeping. ::) That's not to say that I didn't like it as a background for the world of ME, etc., but it was not a quick or easy read. I would like to go through it again and probably with discussion (maybe in the fall?), but I might have to get a copy because it might take to long to depend on borrowing from the library (depending on how quickly we decide to try to read through it - I can get it for 2 3-week periods, so 6 weeks total before I need to return it).

And, since I want to be sure not to force myself to double post, I am going to move on to comments on this week's chapters.

The Siege of Gondor

Pippin is with Beregond and witnessing the return of Faramir as Frodo and Sam are at the crossroads seeing the sun on the king's head.

Pippin felt Gandalf and Denethor's "glances were like blades from eye to eye, flickering as they fenced." Reminds me of Star Wars light sabers. ;)

Gandalf has the line "Just a fool's hope, as I have been told." by Denethor a bit earlier. The last half is not in the film, though the first part is.

Sauron is rushing things after seeing Pippin and Aragorn in the palantir.

Gandalf is upset to hear that Frodo and Sam headed to Cirith Ungol, but says "a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend." As Gollum certainly does in the end.

Faramir has the line "But if I should return, think better of me." and Gandalf says that Denethor loves him and will remember that before the end. (Both in film too.)

Denethor saw the loss of Cair Andros in the palantir. The palantir makes the flickering light in the tower summit.

Denethor thinks that Sauron now has the Ring.

Denethor tells his men to follow Gandalf if they choose. That doesn't happen in the film if I remember correctly. Gandalf just takes over because Denethor is too far gone to lead.

After Grond breaks the gate, the Witch King (Nazgul) rides in on a horse to meet Gandalf on Shadowfax. Wasn't he on Fell Beast in film. Also, Pippin watches from nearby. Isn't he on the horse in film? There is no breaking of Gandalf's staff here. Standoff is ended by the horns of the Rohirrim (and lightening in the sky? The Witch King seems to realize darkness is breaking too soon).

The Ride of the Rohirrim

Merry finds the wait unbearable as Pippin does.

Errand-runners were killed so the Red Arrow never reached Gondor and they don't know that Rohan is coming.

Darkness is breaking (early); light and the smell of the sea of coming (foreshadow Aragorn's entry to the battle). First smelled by Ghan-buri-Ghan.

The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Eowyn refers to Nazgul as dwimmerlaik (what does that mean?).

Theoden talks to Merry, not Eowyn (who is unconscious).

Eomer has the line "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!" (In film, doesn't Theoden get that line or something very similar?)

Merry's sword from the Barrow-Downs was the only one that would have wounded the nazgul King so much, since it was made by the Dunedain in the north who fought him when he was at Angmar.

Eomer sees Aragorn's standard (made by Arwen) on the lead ship and they meet again on the battlefield (though all the hosts of Mordor between them).

men from the south came with Aragorn and his companions, not the Army of the Dead who had already been released for dealing with the Corsairs.

The Pyre of Denethor

Dies clasping the palantir, lying n the bed he made for him and Faramir. Not falling of the mountain.

Gandalf, Beregond and Pippin arrive at the Houses of Healing with Faramir as the Witch King is killed by Eowyn.

I didn't write this down before, but it is interesting that Gandalf doesn't do much fighting, His role was to rally others, not to actively fight himself.

I also think I really need to rewatch the films since I can't always remember what is the same and what changed. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 21, 2006, 06:27:22 pm

OK. I'm double posting. But, it's been over a week and I'm talking about the next set of chapters. And, I'm really hoping (begging, pleading) that someone(s) will pop in and talk to me about these. Please, please, please.

The Houses of Healing

Merry and Pippin here are similar to Frodo and Sam - Pippin wishes he could carry Merry, puts his head in his lap, holds his hands; things are dark andcold for Merry like for Frodo.

Merry - "It's not always a misfortunte being overlooked." It was a good thing with teh Witch King, but he should have been carried into Minas Tirith.

I like Gandalf's line about if Merry had not come "far more grievous woild the evils of this day have been." Yay for Merry!

"Hands of the king are the hands of a healer." We know that Aragorn knows about healing, this shows up much more in the EE than the theatrical release.

Aragorn chooses to furl his banner, give his Star to the sons of Elrond and camp outside the city as captain of the Rangers because he felt it was not time to enter the city as king.

Eomer did not realize that Eowyn was still alive; neither he nor Imrahil knew that Denethor had died. Imrahil is in charge until Faramir recovers, but Gandalf will lead them all.

Aragorn says Eowyn loves Eomer more truly "but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought" which he says in Dunharrow to her in the film.

The hobbits are learning a lot more about the world outside the Shire as Merry indicates "Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not." Kind of like the Rangers guarding the Shire earlier.

The Last Debate

Gimi thinks that Minas Tirith needs some better stonework. Legolas that it needs more gardens and birds. Typical for their races. ;D

Gandalf suggests using their armies as bait, to continue occupying thet Eye as Aragorn started by looking into the Palatir.

7000 head toward Black Gate (though fewer arrive there since some do other things). Most of the Rohirrim go to fight the army behind them to the north that they heard about earlier.

Seems inconvenient for Aragorn to travel so far with an unsheathed sword. ;D

The Black Gate Opens

Merry is being left behind again; this is Pippin's chance to try to match his deed as representative of Hobbits at the Black Gate battle.

They put the King's head back in place at the cross-roads.

I know it was talked about on the DVD extras about whether it should be a single gate or two gates that open, but there is a quote "two cast iron doors of the Black Gate" which should answer the question. Is that what it ended up in the film? Is it completely pathetic that between reading and remembering the debate I can't recall what it actually looked like? I re-watched FOTR, but not TTT or ROTK yet.

Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron hold eyes for a bit. Reminded me of Pippin's description of Gandalf and Denethor. Aragorn does not cut his head off.

The sun comes through the haze "a sullen red, as if it were the ending of the day, or the end maybe of all the world of light." This kind of goes along with the sunset/end of the age/theme I talked about earlier.

Pippin hears others say that the Eagles are coming., but doesn't say it himself. He killed a troll (which Aragorn does in the film), which is not quite as impressive as Merry's deed, but is still pretty impressive for a hobbit. I mentioned a long time ago (early in TTT I think) that there Merry was talking about Pippin keeping his head (dropping the brooch for the others to find, untying his hands) and hoping he'd be as brave. I think Merry surpassed Pippin, but Pippin has done several brave and useful things, too.

OK. That's it for these chapters. I hope I won't be only talking to myself here.

*down on knees begging for some company in this thread*

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 21, 2006, 08:08:34 pm

Celebrian,
I could have SWORN I posted on the last chapters. I guess I missed them because I was sick. I'll post tomorrow, I promise!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 21, 2006, 08:52:36 pm

Thanks Rach. I'm very glad that I am not just talking to myself. ;D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 22, 2006, 08:23:48 am

Well, I DO apologize. I must have been delusional with fever because the more I think of it, the more I remember posting. I wonder if I accidently hit the wrong key at the end? I might have, considering how I was feeling at times. I am sorry.

The Houses of Healing

Good point about Merry and Pippin being like Frodo and Sam. I had never really thought od it that way, but you're right. Another thing that I thought was much more obvious in the movie than the book, but certainly present in both, was the role reversal of these characters. Through the first part of the story, Pippin has been the child, the one Merry sort of looked after. Suddenly, here in the alien city, Pippin has grown to become the caretaker. An interesting juxtaposition when you think of it.

This is one of my favorite chapters! I love the relationship between Merry and Pippin here, and the beautiful knowledge of the king that we gain. Tolkien also infuses this heavy chapter with humor, a lovely contrast.

Did you ever notice that Merry’s symptoms are almost exactly like Frodo’s after being stabbed on Weathertop?

It is impressive that in the midst of all the wreck and ruin of the battle’s aftermath, Gandalf came HIMSELF to pick up Merry and take him to the Houses. He is well aware of Merry’s heroism and of his responsibility to care for the hobbits. Remember that earlier he commented that every wizard should have a couple of hobbits in his care, just to teach him patience. LOL

Aragorn is wise not to go into the city and make his claim right away. It could have caused trouble that Minas Tirith didn’t need at that moment.
Aragorn slips in, however, undercover, to care for the sick, leaving Prince Imrahil in charge. I wish we could get leaders with so little desire for power these days.

Here's another interesting bit: Aragorn uses Sam’s name for athelas to Ioreth and that is the name she knows. People aren't so very different, though they live so far apart, are they?

The poem here says “Life to the dying, in the king’s hand lying.” Does this mean athelas only works for the king? I think it might, which would explain why the people of Gondor didn’t know it had any healing virtue.

Doesn’t it seem to you that everyone smells something different when athelas is boiled? Ioreth smells the roses from a youthful memory but Pippin smells an orchard full of bees.

Here is one of my FAOVRITE lines in the entire book and one I have quoted more times than I can count. “It is best to love first what you are fitted to love.”
The speech that includes the above line is Tolkien’s clearest iteration of the main theme of the book, that every day lie is nothing without beauty and questing and beauty and questing are nothing without every day life to uphold.

The Last Debate

Isn’t in interesting how Legolas and Gimli, on their walk through Minas Tirith, plan to help Aragorn in their own way once he comes into his kingdom? Gimli thinks it needs stone masons and Legolas thinks it needs more gardens! LOL

You will remember that Galadriel told Leggie back in Lothlorien to beware the gulls. Now that he has heard them, he feels the irresistible call of the Sea. This is signifigant for Sam was well. In the Home series, in the original epilogue, at the very end, Sam is closing the door to Bag End and hears “the sigh and call of the Sea.”

Sauron can not make the palantiri lie, but he CAN make them show only the things he wants them to. That is how he drove Denthor mad.

The Black Gate Opens

All through this chapter, Tolkien prepares us for the return to Frodo and Sam by mentioning them or in some way reminding us of them. Here he mentions that Aragorn’s party stops at the Crossroads and sees the King with his crown.
They also pass the place where Faramir’s men captured Frodo and Sam.
The Emyn Muil is mentioned. This just goes on and on.

Did you notice that the Mouth has forgotten his real name, just like Gollum? He has been depersonalized, as Tolkien believed that industry did to people.

The Mouth had not only Frodo’s mithril vest, but also Sam’s sword, which Sam had laid beside Frodo in place of Sting.

Gandalf is well aware that they do not have Frodo when he turns down the Mouth’s offer. If he had, Sauron would have already have stuck them all down and they wouldn’t be having that conversation.

Poor Pippin wishes that if he had to die, he and Merry could die togther.

I think there WERE two gates, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm suually pretty emotional by this point so I could be wrong.

We're back to Frodo and Sam again. WHOOPEE!!!!!!!!!!

Hugs,
Rach




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 22, 2006, 01:10:31 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=345#msg994766 date=1143033828]
Well, I DO apologize. [/quote]

No apology necessary. I'm just glad you're here now. :)


Quote:
Another thing that I thought was much more obvious in the movie than the book, but certainly present in both, was the role reversal of these characters. Through the first part of the story, Pippin has been the child, the one Merry sort of looked after. Suddenly, here in the alien city, Pippin has grown to become the caretaker. An interesting juxtaposition when you think of it.


I agree. I think I noticed this too, but didn't write it down, although I notice that we write down a lot of the same things. ;D


Quote:
It is impressive that in the midst of all the wreck and ruin of the battle’s aftermath, Gandalf came HIMSELF to pick up Merry and take him to the Houses. He is well aware of Merry’s heroism and of his responsibility to care for the hobbits. Remember that earlier he commented that every wizard should have a couple of hobbits in his care, just to teach him patience. LOL


Great observation. I had thought about the fact that Gandalf was not directly involved in the battle since he was busy saving Faramir and then Merry, but hadn't remembered that quote.


Quote:
I wish we could get leaders with so little desire for power these days.


Sigh.

[quote]Here's another interesting bit: Aragorn uses Sam’s name for athelas to Ioreth and that is the name she knows. People aren't so very different, though they live so far apart, are they?

The poem here says “Life to the dying, in the king’s hand lying.” Does this mean athelas only works for the king? I think it might, which would explain why the people of Gondor didn’t know it had any healing virtue.[/quote]

Yes, the common name for it is known in many different places. I hadn't thought that the athelas might only work for the king. Don't some older people use it too? But, that is a really interesting idea. Hmmmm.


Quote:
Doesn’t it seem to you that everyone smells something different when athelas is boiled? Ioreth smells the roses from a youthful memory but Pippin smells an orchard full of bees.


Yes, I think that was part of the point. That each person smells what they would find comforting.

[quote]Here is one of my FAOVRITE lines in the entire book and one I have quoted more times than I can count. “It is best to love first what you are fitted to love.”
The speech that includes the above line is Tolkien’s clearest iteration of the main theme of the book, that every day lie is nothing without beauty and questing and beauty and questing are nothing without every day life to uphold.[/quote]

I didn't pick up on this at all. Thanks for pointing it out.

The Last Debate


Quote:
You will remember that Galadriel told Leggie back in Lothlorien to beware the gulls. Now that he has heard them, he feels the irresistible call of the Sea. This is signifigant for Sam was well. In the Home series, in the original epilogue, at the very end, Sam is closing the door to Bag End and hears “the sigh and call of the Sea.”


Didn't know that about Sam. Interesting. But, I knew it about Legolas.

The Black Gate Opens


Quote:
Did you notice that the Mouth has forgotten his real name, just like Gollum? He has been depersonalized, as Tolkien believed that industry did to people.


Good point.


Quote:
Gandalf is well aware that they do not have Frodo when he turns down the Mouth’s offer. If he had, Sauron would have already have stuck them all down and they wouldn’t be having that conversation.


Also, the Mouth talks about a single friend of theirs not two despite having Frodo's mail and Sam's sword, so that was a hint that all was not as it seemed.


Quote:
I think there WERE two gates, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm suually pretty emotional by this point so I could be wrong.


That's what I was thinking. And, that is correct based on the quote from the book. But, in the commentaries, they seemed concerned that the animators got it wrong.


Quote:
We're back to Frodo and Sam again. WHOOPEE!!!!!!!!!!


;D

Thanks so much for chatting with me about this! :D

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on March 28, 2006, 06:10:54 pm

OK. I'm double posting once again, but now I'm posting about the next three chapters, so here goes.

The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Early on it gives links to the other storylines and what is happening when.

"Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." When did Sam take the Ring off? I noticed this before. I thought that he still had it on when he chased the orcs at the end of Two Towers and that's why he could hear their conversation and understand it.

Sam has two choices: Forbear the Ring or claim it; it tempted him - he wants a garden, flowers, trees - but he knows enough not to claim it. It is tempting him very quickly since he is in Mordor unlike Bilbo and Frodo who had it much longer without strong temptations.

Phial of Galadriel gets Sam past the Watchers, but the alarm sounds. It's very convenient that the orcs killed each other. ;)

Naked Frodo. Alas for a PG-13 rating. ;D

Sam feels the pull of the Ring but gives it up. Frodo sees Sam as an orc for a moment and then clears and says rightly "You can't come between me and this doom."

Frodo makes Sam eat/drink. They are taking care of each other.

Alarm from the Watchers calls Nazgul (which they sensed earlier).

The Land of Shadow

Frodo says to go north from the road. Why not south? Still part of the plateau and fewer orcs and they can come at Orodruin from the south and it might even be a shorter distance. I stared at the maps for a little while and was confused about this decision, except possibly for dramatic tension as they run into orc troops later.

Frodo can't remember parts of the Shire already.

Frodo senses Nazgul above them, not Sam; they see the shadow of the Witch King.

"The Shadow was only a small and passing thing." Sam is getting hope from the light and the star he sees.

Frodo gives Sam Sting; has an orcblade but does not expect to "strike any blow again." (More foreshadowing here.) As an aside, I was thinking as I typed this about whether Frodo actually ever fights with Sting. Does he stab/kill anything? Not that I recall at the moment. Rach?

Here is the line "Where there's a whip there's a will, my slugs." which I'm sure was the inspiration for the song "Where's there's a whip, there's a way" that was in the animated LOTR and was done my WWS for "Ringers." ;D

Mount Doom

Sam realizes that there will be no food for a return trip, almost lost hope, but steeled his will.

Frodo has great self-awareness: "I could not give it up and if you tried to take it I should go mad."

Many lines from the movie: Frodo has no memory of good things; naked in the dark and no veil between me and the wheel of fire.

Sam has a conversation with himself that is reminiscent (sp?) of the Slinker/Stinker dichotomy between determination and pessimism.

"I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well." :D

Both feel a call to action on the slopes of Mount Doom.

When Frodo faces Gollum, Sam sees Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire." (Elflike). With a commanding voice Frodo tells Gollum "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom." Foreshadowing again.

Sam doesn't kill Gollum. This could be from his own pity or is it another power because Gollum still has a role to play.

Phial of Galadriel was subdued in the heart of Sauron's realm.

When Frodo claims the Ring, Sauron focuses on him so armies lose their will and halt.

Gollum dances and falls; Frodo did not go after him and did not fall himself.

Gollum had a role to play and the quest would have failed without him.

"I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam." :D

There are quite a few times in this section when Sam is acting but is not quite sure why he is doing certain things. I'm guessing this is more of the influence of another power (Iluvatar?) similar to why Bilbo found the Ring and other things fell into place. Or is Galadriel somehow guiding him (or Gandalf, but somehow he is thinking more of Galadriel with the Phial)?

On a different note: I watched the 2nd disk of TTT last night. Theoden has thet lines about the horseless rider, etc. as he gets ready for the battle at Helm's Deep. Where is that speech actually and who says it? (Is that Aragorn at Boromir's "funeral"? I just can't recall.) Also, Sam in the film tells Faramir that the Ring "took" Boromir. Did Sam actually know what happened with Boromir? Did he guess that before he went after Frodo? (My memory is terrible and I don't have time at the moment to scan back through this thread or get my FOTR and TTT books out again.)

Phew. That's it for now.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on March 29, 2006, 11:45:03 am

Sam says nothing of the kind in the book. That was an addition of PJs. However, I think it is perfectly logical to assume that Sam knew what had happened with Boromir. On that long trek together, it seems unimaginable that Frodo wouldn't have told him.

I'll get to my post on this later today or tomorrow. I am up to my elbows in wallpaper paste removal and REALLY should go to the other Lowes and see if they have my light fixture. Then I need to call an electrician to put in the fixture and a plug. That bathroom has never had one.

*sigh* My poor back!

Hugs,
Rach - who would rather be on the computer

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on April 03, 2006, 02:45:02 pm

I'm behind. I beg your forgiveness.

Cirith Ungol

Tarks – Men of Gondor
The orcs still think that Sam is a great warrior, and elf or Man. They call him the more dangerous of the spies. Were they right? I think they were, in their way. Sam isn't dangerous because of strength of arms, but he IS very dangerous in strength of heart.

Sam is tempted by the Ring, but the temptation isa poorly thought out one. Sauron doesn't offer Sam anything he really wants. He has the sense to realize that power is not meant for him. He doesn't even want it. The book says that his love of his master and his good hobbit-sense are what keep him from falling to temptation.

The book also says this, "Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again." The only reason Sam felt any hesitation to return the ring to Frodo is because he doesn't want Frodo to be burdened. Sam has already passed his temptation.

I often wonder when I read this what would have happened if Sauron had offered Sam something different, perhaps Frodo safe, home, happy, and unburdened by the ring. Might things have turned out differently? Sauron has no concept of a mind that doesn't want power, so power is what he offers.

I LOVE the part where Sam sits down and sings and Frodo answers. What a wonderful way to find each other, in the midst of filth and death!

I’ve always loved the fact that Frodo makes Sam eat before they leave the tower. He is his old self again.


Have you noticed that the POV of the story has turned? Now Sam is telling things almost exclusively. This was a necessary move since Frodo, from this point on, becomes more and more obessesed and swollowed up by the ring.

The Land of the Shadow

Yes, Frodo fights with Sting a bit in Moria and cuts at the webs in Shelob's Lair, but that's about it. I feel a bit sorry that Elijah, after all that sword training, didn't get to use his. I felt so badly for him that I wrote a story where Frodo gets to have a good sword fight. If PJ wouldn't give EW a chance to use his sword, I would! LOL

Sam prays to “Your Ladyship”. This could be either Yavanna or Galadriel since he has called on her help before.

Sam asks for light and water in his prayer and is given both

Sam truly becomes, in his evolution of character the symbol of hope in the story. Most Tolkien scholars see him as the symbol of light in opposition to the symbols of darkness in the light (Goodness)/darkness(Evil) paradigm of the story.

In seeing the star, Sam is given hope again. One wonders if this was the gift of the Valar as well.

Now, Frodo tells Sam “Lead me.” Sam has become the official leader of the party to destroy the Ring. Their roles have reversed. This is is pretty intense foreshadowing of Sam's ultimate inheritance. Can't go further. It's a spoiler.

Sam isn’t telling Frodo that he’s giving his master all the water and his share of food too.
Even when they seem trapped by the orcs, Sam retains a bit of hope. “Seems so,”said Sam. “Well, we can but wait and see.”

Mount Doom

1.   Sam has become a very resolute hobbit. This first part corresponds to the part in the third movie where Sam tells Frodo there won’t be a return journey and holds out his hand. If there won’t be a trip home, Sam is sticking with Frodo anyway.
2.   This chapter has my FAVORITE Sam quote, the “creature of stone and steel “ one. I LOVE that!
3.   Frodo and Sam are now going on only because they must. The quest is everything in their lives and they see nothing beyond it.
4.   Do you remember the part of the movie at Mt. Doom where it looks a bit like Elijah is swatting flies? Its taken from this chapter where Sam notices Frodo’s “hand warding off a blow”. I must remember to be more respectful of that section from now on! LOL
5.   Sam is giving Frodo all the food and most of the water. Dehydration is very debilitating. How can they go on?
6.   Sam speaks of seeing “pale lights like eyes”. I don’t know why this never registered before, but Sam is seeing Gollum!
7.   Sam offers to carry the ring for Frodo here, but only to help him. Frodo’s reaction is strong but he is over it in a flash. One wonders what might have happened if he hadn’t. Sam’s life is in real danger on the quest, if nothing else than because Frodo could become a threat. I think this is what PJ was trying to convey in the scene in TTT where Frodo almost kills Sam.
8.   I’ve mentioned many times how the casting of the pans is a symbol of Sam’s growth as a hobbit and a character. I won’t mention it again. Wait…I just did!
9.   I never noticed it before, but it sounds to me as if Frodo is naked after casting off the orc garb, except for Sam’s elven cloak, Why else would Sam have cut a length of rope to tie the cloak around Frodo’s waist? All Frodo had to wear was lost in Cirith Ungol.
10.   Sam remembers the Shire and pleasant times there, but knows that “the way back…goes past the Mountain.” Its necessary that SOMEONE remember why they are suffering so and Frodo can’t.
11.   You know, I’ve just realized something else about this chapter. Doesn’t it sound like Sam’s debate with himself near the end of the section is Sauron tempting him again, trying to get him to give up?
Part 2
Sam has given Frodo the water to the extent that he cannot now even eat.
2.Why do you think Sam no longer feels the need for sleep, but for watchfulness?
3. When Sam lifts Frodo, he doesn’t feel the weight of the ring. Why?
4. Isn’t in ironic that Sam and Frodo approach Sammath Naur via Sauron’s own road?
5. On the slope, Sam feels himself called to hurry. Is it his conscience, or did someone call him?
6. They made it up the slope partially because Sauron’s Eye was turned to the encounter at the Black Gate.
7. Gollum may not have attacked Frodo of sheerly his own will at the end. The book says that only an attempt to wrest Frodo’s treasure from him could have roused him. Maybe someone KNEW this….
8. Frodo prophesies that if Gollum touches him , Gollum will fall into the Fires of Doom.
9. Here we see that Sam’s pity saves the quest. He has learned much on the journey, and this is one of the most important things.
10. After the Ring is destroyed, every one seems to freeze to watch the destruction of all that Sauron held in place, even Sam.

Celebrian, Sam DOES take the Ring off. I remember that. He really only wears it when he has to. He knows that the closer they come to Mt. Doom, the stronger the Ring becomes, and the heavier it becomes.

Hugs,
Rach




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 03, 2006, 05:20:41 pm

Rach - All is forgiven. ;) I popped in to post about this weeks' chapters, but maybe I'll wait on that.


Quote:
"Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again." The only reason Sam felt any hesitation to return the ring to Frodo is because he doesn't want Frodo to be burdened. Sam has already passed his temptation.


My interpretation of this was a little different. I think Sam is still tempted (just like Frodo is mostly resisting the Ring but at times is overtaken by its power) and that's where his reluctance comes from. I did not interpret it to mean this "Sam felt reluctant to give the Ring back to Frodo because of the burden it would be for his master" which is how you seem to have interpreted it.

I always assumed that "Your Ladyship" was Galadriel since he has called on her before, he has the light she gave Frodo and I'm not sure he knows much about Yavanna.

Yes, Sam has definitely become the leader and the POV by necessity because Frodo is being so consumed by the Ring. And, Sam is giving Frodo just about all the water and I thought half of his own share of the food - not quite all.


Quote:
3. When Sam lifts Frodo, he doesn’t feel the weight of the ring. Why?


I assumed that since Frodo is bearing the Ring that he is somehow "absorbing" for lack of a better word, the weight and power of the Ring, so Sam just feels Frodo's weight (and the weight of a normal gold ring that he would be carrying, I suppose).

And, Rach, I'm going to make an observation here and I want you to keep in mind that I love and respect you and I love Sam, OK? ;D I think that your very strong love for Sam leads you to interpret things in a way that is perhaps a little more favorable to Sam than they could be. Which is not to say that most things are quite favorable to Sam. He is brave, strong and keeping his head to get himself and Frodo through a very difficult set of obstacles. But, as I said above, I think he is tempted by the Ring more than you have acknowledged (as I said above). And, I think he is getting some help from other sources (Iluvatar, Galadriel, another higher power?).

Still friends? ;) :D

Anyway, I'll come back to post about the next three chapters later.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on April 03, 2006, 05:29:05 pm

I interpret things as a result of 40 years of reading and studying which have only intensified my love of Sam, but as this is an Elijah board, I can certainly understand that people here would lean toward a different interpretation.
Tolkien says Sam is the "chief hero of the book" for a number of reasons. I didn't make that up. It's in his Letters.

You have your interprtation and I have mine, and that is how the good Professor would have wanted it.

Still friends, of course.

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 03, 2006, 06:18:31 pm

Rach - I'm sorry. :-[ Clearly there are times when one should not click the Post button.

Let me make clear, that I don't think this is an issue of this being an Elijah board. I think people here (including me - which considering the way this thread is going may be among the most relevant) are very open to having fans of other actors or of the books in general here and posting their interpretations. And, I actually think the disagreement over interpretation is really quite small in the grand scheme of things. I respect your interpretation and your knowledge of Tolkien's other writings (which I have not read so I can't comment on in any way). And I appreciate all that you have shared about those other writings and other things that I was not aware of.

Anyway, it is fine in any book discussion to have different interpretations of various things and I think that makes the discussion more interesting at times. So, yup:


Quote:
You have your interpretation and I have mine, and that is how the good Professor would have wanted it.


Anyway, I apologize again. And, when I have a bit more time (so not now when I have a whiny kid who needs to be fed), I will come back and post about the next three chapters so we can all move on.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 05, 2006, 02:09:55 pm

OK. Double posting again, but this is a new set of chapters, so I think it deserves a new post. And, I've been meaning to get to this for 3 days and finally managed to get a moment.

The Field of Cormallen

Too bad in the film Gandalf didn't have the line "The Ring-bearer has fulfillied his Quest." I think Ian McKellan would have done a good job with it and it's a great line. Not sure why they didn't include it.

There are 3 Eagles. I think it was said earlier that maybe that was for Frodo, Sam and Gollum (in this thread or elsewhere), but it is not clear from the description if the Eagle that carries Gandalf also carries a hobbit. It could have been Gandalf, Frodo and Sam for the 3.

In the repeated line here it adds the word "that" to "I am glad that. . ." I wonder why it is different?

Sam won't give up (hopeful due to clear skies in the north).

Sam saved both of Galadriel's gifts (phial and his box).

The minstrel sang the lay of "Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom" just as Sam hoped.

At the end of the lay, Aragorn stands, but where was he sitting - I thought he put Frodo and Sam on his throne.

Pippin says that Frodo should write allt he stuff down so Bilbo won't be disappointed if they forget. There are several Bilbo references that brings him back into the story before they see him again.

The Steward and thet King

Faramir and Eowyn talk about waiting for the "stroke of doom" then time seems to halt; then hope at the time the Ring is destroyed. They all feel it.

Aragorn plants the new seedling. The old tree is put in Rath Dinen with the dead kings.

I didn't write any specific notes, but I love Faramir's forthrightness when he talks to Eowyn as their relationship develops.

Many Partings

Arwen gives Frodo thet Evenstar (white gem like a star) to aid him when memory of fear and darkness troubles him.

Eomer and Gimli settle the issue of most beautiful lady. Galadriel/morning vs Arwen/evening. Morning "will pass away for ever." since Galadriel will soon said into the west. Fits earlier symbolism, though we are now in the 4th age.

Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep. Why?

Eowyn gives Merry a horn (heirloom from Eorl the Young). When blown enemies feel fear and friends feel joy.

Ents made Isengard into a garden; they also fought the northern orcs who would have stopped the Rohirrim or at least destroyed Rohan before their return.

Gimli and Legolas go from there to Fangorn (and had already visited the Glittering Caves by Helm's Deep). End of the Fellowship.

Galadriel says that she and Treebeard may meet again in the "willow-meads of Tasarinan" Ummm, huh? Where is that?

Pippin is still a knight of Gondor. Aragorn will come north one day.

Celeborn tells Aragorn "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end." Why didn't celeborn sail west with Galadriel? I know he stayed on for a while with the sons of Elrond, but why?

They meet Saruman and Wormtongue. Saruman takes Merry's pouch and some foreshadowing "things less good in the Southfarthing."

Celeborn, Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf talk telepathically.

Hobbits find Bilbo as soon as they get to Rivendell on the day before his 129th b-day.

Frodo and Sam felt the need to return to thet Shire.

Bilbo gives gifts: 3 books of lore for Frodo; gold to Sam for his marriage; pipes to Pippin and Merry. Bilbo asks about the Ring n Frodo says he lost it so that is in Rivendell (not on the way to the Grey Havens like in the movie). Sings the "Road goes ever on and on" song. Asks Frodo to take his notes to organize and write them up.

Elrond tells Frodo to look for Bilbo and him in the woods of the Shire next fall.

Phew! After several interruptions, I'm done I think.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on April 05, 2006, 04:30:18 pm


Quote:
I think it was said earlier that maybe that was for Frodo, Sam and Gollum (in this thread or elsewhere), but it is not clear from the description if the Eagle that carries Gandalf also carries a hobbit. It could have been Gandalf, Frodo and Sam for the 3.


I've always thought that the third eagle was for Gandalf. I really don't think even the eagles could carry both a wizard and a hobbit. That's just my idea, of course.

My favorite line in The Field of Cormallen is Sam (of course!LOL) saying, "Is everything bad going to come untrue?" It's very typical of Sam and I imagine how it must have seem to both he and Frodo. They thought Gandalf was dead and here he is. They thought they would never make it to destroy the ring and yet they did. They thought there would be no return journey and yet here they are with their friends. They must have felt as if the bad WAS coming "untrue".

Celebrian, Aragorn DID set Frodo and Sam on his throne. Here's the quote. "..and taking them both by the hand, Frodo on his right and Sam on his left, he led them to the throne and setting them upon it, he turned to the men and captains who stood by and spoke..."

These little hobbits, the least of ME, sat on the throne of the king. That's SOMETHING!

It has always bothered me a bit that Eowyn dropped her desire for glory so easily when she fell in love with Faramir. I guess love makes you do strange things. LOL



Quote:
Arwen gives Frodo thet Evenstar (white gem like a star) to aid him when memory of fear and darkness troubles him.


I have a little theory about this jewel. It is JUST my idea. I've never read anything else about it. It is based on something from the Appendices so I won't explain it here but I will when we get there.


Quote:
Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep. Why?


I really don't know. It has always seemed like maybe it was a sort of "guy" thing, except for Eowyn, of course, but again. it's just my feeling.


Quote:
Celeborn tells Aragorn "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end." Why didn't celeborn sail west with Galadriel? I know he stayed on for a while with the sons of Elrond, but why?


Perhaps it was because he was not one of the elves who went to Valinor to begin with. I am no elf expert by any means, but as I recall, Celeborn had never been to the Undying Lands, as Galadriel had, and therefore had less connection to it. He may have also felt he still had things to do in ME. He lived in ...let me think....Doriath, withon the Girdle of Melian in ME. They didn't meet until Galadriel came back from Valinor with her family after the Kinslaying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Both Elrond and Celeborn lost their wives to Valinor fairly early. It's rather sad. Maybe it is something to do with the symbolism of sailing west that people with bonds of love are so often separated by it.

Hugs,
Rach






Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 05, 2006, 10:24:17 pm

[quote author=Storyteller link=board=17;threadid=28859;start=345#msg999372 date=1144269018]
Celebrian, Aragorn DID set Frodo and Sam on his throne. Here's the quote. "..and taking them both by the hand, Frodo on his right and Sam on his left, he led them to the throne and setting them upon it, he turned to the men and captains who stood by and spoke..."

These little hobbits, the least of ME, sat on the throne of the king. That's SOMETHING![/quote]

Yes it was something. So, then was Aragorn sitting on the ground? Or on some low seat on the other side of either Eomer or Imrahil? That's what confused me. Where was he sitting if not on his throne? (I suppose he could have been sitting on Frodo's and Sam's laps and what an amusing image that would be. But somehow I don't think so. ;D)


Quote:
It has always bothered me a bit that Eowyn dropped her desire for glory so easily when she fell in love with Faramir. I guess love makes you do strange things. LOL


That's a good point. But, marrying Faramir who will be a Prince does not necessarily preclude glory. And, with the major evil gone there is probably less of that type of glory to be had anyway. And, she was in need of a reason to bother living and she found that in falling in love. Or something. ::)

[quote]

Quote:
Arwen stays at Edoras when the others head to Helm's Deep. Why?


I really don't know. It has always seemed like maybe it was a sort of "guy" thing, except for Eowyn, of course, but again. it's just my feeling.[/quote]

At the point when they go to Isengard, Galadriel is still with them. (And when they talk about elves from Rivendell and Lorien, there could be other females who came for the wedding, right?) As is Elrond, Arwen's father. They said their goodbyes at Edoras and maybe that's why since it would be harder to have time together at Isengard and harder to have to say goodbye again?


Quote:
Perhaps it was because he was not one of the elves who went to Valinor to begin with. I am no elf expert by any means, but as I recall, Celeborn had never been to the Undying Lands, as Galadriel had, and therefore had less connection to it. He may have also felt he still had things to do in ME. He lived in ...let me think....Doriath, withon the Girdle of Melian in ME. They didn't meet until Galadriel came back from Valinor with her family after the Kinslaying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Sounds about right to me, but I've only read the Sil once. It just seems like if he is dreading being parted from Galadriel, then he could leave with her. Although, maybe he feels that he needs to be there to oversee the end of Lothlorien and of the time of the elves in ME. I wish that were explained more somewhere though.


Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 11, 2006, 05:53:49 pm

I'm double posting once again to post my comments on the last 3 chapters.

Homeward Bound

It is October 6, one year from the stabbing on Weathertop and there is an interesting conversation between Frodo and Gandalf. Gandalf says that some wounds cannot be wholly healed, Frodo asks where he shall find rest and Gandalf does not answer. (But, we know. ;))

Bree is locked up tight (and it's raining hard). Overall gloomy.

Wolves and "dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things" What are the dark shapes? They are there now that the Rangers left.

Sam realizes that they will see in the Shire what he saw in the Mirror.

Gandalf mentions Saruman, says the hobbits don't need his help and goes to speak to Bombadil.

The Scouring of the Shire

Bill the pony kicked Bill Ferny as he left for good (Go Bill the pony! ;D)

Frodo figures out the situation before the others. He is older and more experienced.

Merry blows the horn of Rohan and plans the strategy for battle. He was the one who planned the "conspiracy" at the beginning too.

Frodo tells the Gaffer and the Cottons that Sam is famous and there are songs about his deeds in front of Rosie. :D

I can just hear Christopher Lee welcoming them home to Bag End. Saruman talks about Frodo growing and he's right.

When Saruman dies, a grey mist rises and is then blown away by the wind like Sauron (and the Witch King I think).

They never thought the war would end at Bag End's door.

In this chapter, we see Frodo as the leader again as he was at the start.

The Grey Havens

Frodo become Deputy Mayor.

Sam uses Galadriel's gift; a mallorn tree replaces the party tree. Important tree here as in Minas Tirith.

Mentions that Sam is torn in two twice.

Frodo says the line "The last pages are for you." at Bag End, not Grey Havens as in the film.

It's the second fall after leaving Rivendell, not the first as Elrond seemed to indicate when they left.

Sam realizes that he can't go with Frodo and Bilbo on his own. It becomes part of Frodo's voiceover in the film.

Merry and Pippin came to the Grey Havens thanks to Gandalf's word. Pippin jokes about Frodo trying to give them the slip again.

What Gandalf says to Pippin during the battle in Minas Tirith is actually what Frodo sees as he sails into the west "white shores and beyond them a far-green country under a swift sunrise."

Having just re-watched the films (finished ROTK Sunday night) in part looking for "mistakes" I've seen listed I did notice one that I don't recall reading. Frodo and Sam do not have their elven cloaks on Mount Doom. At some point on their way they are even shivering, but don't have them to put on (presumably Sam's and Frodo's if it wasn't taken had been thrown in the hole with the pans and backpack and such). But, at the Grey Havens, they are wearing them again. Do you think Galadriel gave them replacements?

Phew. Done for now (until the appendices).

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on April 12, 2006, 08:48:13 am

Celbrian, I never saw your last post on the other chapters. I STILL don't get all the notices for this thread. I'm sorry.

TOlkien has a real thing about repeating dates. We'll see it a lot in the Appendices, especially in the Tale Of Years. I have long planned an essay on that. Maybe I'll do it once I finish my current series of stories. I'm sort of in the mood to work with some non-fiction.


Quote:
What are the dark shapes?

It never really says what they are, but I think they are more to set the mood. There are Ruffians all around now and I think Tolkien is trying to really let us know that things have changed in the Shire and its environs.


Quote:
Merry blows the horn of Rohan and plans the strategy for battle. He was the one who planned the "conspiracy" at the beginning too.



Merry has always been my second favorite hobbit and this is why. He has such good organizational skills. The film kind of shorted him on that, I'm afraid, though I loved what Dom did with the rle.



Quote:
Frodo tells the Gaffer and the Cottons that Sam is famous and there are songs about his deeds in front of Rosie.

I just love this fun bit! Frodo is playing Cupid here. He wants Rosie to know that Sam is a hero.

Rosie shows her good heart here. Sam has been gone for mor than a year. She could so asily have said, "You need to stay here a while and let the gentlehobbits take care of the mess." But she doesn't. She sends him back to Mr. Frodo. Rosie UNDERSTANDS Sam, and his devotion to his master. She is a good hobbit lass and will make Sam a fine wife.

Apparently, Lotho's evil began before Frodo ever left the Shire, so it wsn't all Saruman's doing. Farmer Cotton says Lotho began buying things (notably the mill) before he accquired Bag End.


Quote:
When Saruman dies, a grey mist rises and is then blown away by the wind like Sauron (and the Witch King I think).


I LOVE this bit! If you know the histories of these characters, it becomes even more interesting. Saruman and Sauron both came from Valinor and when Saruman's body died, it looked to the west for a moment, rather like it is pleading for readmittance, but it is utterly rejected. How appropriate!

I love that the Tooks stood up to the Ruffians, shooting any that came on their land, but I have always wondered why Paladin didn't do more to protect the SHire as a whole. He IS the King's steward for the area, as well as the head of the Shire Moot. I have a theory as to why and wrote about it in my story The Wait.

The Mayor of Michel Delving is the actual head of the Shirriffs, but poor Wil Whitfoot was one of the first to be put into the Lockholes and really had no chance to do much.

The Grey Havens has always been an extremely emotional chapter for me. Even now, it is difficult for me to talk about. I have SO MANY books in my life but the departure of Frodo is, to this day, the saddest scene in al literature (IMHO). I can't even hear the scene without tearing up, and I find that scene in the film, though much vetted, almost impossible to watch.

Elanor is born on the anniversary of the distruction of the Ring, March 25th. Again we see Tolkien repeating dates, but there is a good reason for this one. New birth parallels destruction.

Sam was courting Rosie before they ever left for the Quest. He left her behind, possibly forever (he said he wouldn't come back unless Frodo did) as well has his ailing father, all out of loyalty to Frodo and this is at the BEGINNING of the quest. That, my friends, is dedication.

This is the most difficult part of me. I wish we had gotten ALL of Frodo's speech to Sam, what I call his commission, in the film. I would have loved to here Elijah do the line, "All I have or might have had, I leave to you." (Rough quote) Frodo left Sam so much more than just money and a house. He left him the LIFE he would have had, and Sam lived it to the fullest. Frodo left him a list of things he must do (be mayor, heal the Shire, etc) and even named his children as far as Frodo could see them, and Sam fullfilled it all.

I'm tearing up just talking about it. I'd better stop now.

In the original versions of the book, there was no Rose and Sam went to the west with Frodo. Tolkien came to the conclusion, however, that Sam and Rosie's "rustic" love was essential to the story as it showed the theme of the book, that "every day life is flat without beauty and questing, but beauty and questing are pointless without everyday life to uphold." (Tolkien - "Letters")

If you have read the epilogue found in the HOME series, you know that Sam heard the call of the Sea long before his tasks in ME were done. It is my feeling that he lived his life torn in two.

Ok, I'm going to stop now. LOL Need a kleenex.

Hugs,
Rach




Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on April 27, 2006, 11:23:45 pm

OK. I just managed to finish Appendix A. Between finishing up a different book and real life I didn't have a huge amount of time. Then, the appendix has a smaller font, I found it to be slower reading (more like a history text than the story itself - similar to the prologue that we discussed early on was tough for some people) and I kept feeling compelled to look at maps and occasionally at other lists or kings or dates or what have you, so it took forever. But, I finished and now I'd like to post the comments I jotted down, so I'll feel like this section is complete and I'm ready to move onto the rest of the appendices starting tomorrow (I doubt I'll finish them by Sunday, but we'll see how it goes).

Anyway, I did not take extensive notes (too slow-going and I couldn't deal), but here's what I've got:

Luthien begot Dior, begot Elwing, begot Elrond, begot Arwen so Arwen is the great great-granddaughter of Luthien.

Elrond is the uncle of Aragorn with many "greats" thrown in.

Numenoreans had lifetimes thrice normal men, but still mortal; Valor could not take away the "Gift of Men."

Elendil and sons were leaders of the Faithful; 9 ships survived destruction of Numenor after they tried (under Sauron's counsel) to reach the Undying Lands. They brought a seedling of Nimloth and the 7 Seeing-Stones (Palantiri).

The Lord of Angmar was "not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths." Was he already a wraith when he was the King of Angmar? I thought he was the Kinf of Angmar and became a wraith later after having one of the 9 rings for a while to eat at him.

Elves came from Lindon to help against Angmar. Is Lindon in the west by the Grey Havens, etc.?

Lords and Kings of Dunedain (of Cardolan) are buried in the Barrowdowns and evil spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur came.

Glorfindel fought with Gondor to destroy the Witch-King/Angmar. It was he who made the statement that no man would kill the witch-king. After that, Witch-King went to Mordor, gathered the wraiths and took Minas Ithil.

"Thorongil" (Aragorn) served Ecthelion (steward of Gondor) after serving Thengel of Rohan; he burned ships of the Corsairs to prevent an attack in the south and overthrew the captain. Denethor was the only one who didn't love Thorongil; also trusted Saruman more than Gandalf. Did he guess that Thorongil was actually the King? Was far-sighted.

Sauron got the Palantir in Minas Ithil (akin to the one in Minas Tirith, which was not used by stewards until Denethor).

Denethor's wife Finduilas was from Dol Amroth and died young.

When Aragorn and Arwen meet, he is singing the Lay of Luthien, which he also sings (parts of) in FOTR book and film.

Arwen comments about Luthien (when Aragorn mistakes her): "maybe my doom will be not unlike hers." More foreshadowing since this is years before she falls for him.

Aragorn traveled far east and south among good/bad Men.

Of the Gift of Men it says that Men are not bound to the circles of the world; "beyond them is more than memory." (Does this basically mean that they will meet again in heaven - or whatever version that takes - for eternity together?)

Aragorn chooses his times to die. Arwen dies at Cerin Amroth in Lorien. Not buried with other queens (where are they since they do not seem to be with their husbands in Minas Tirith?) and doesn't go to Rivendell (are her brothers still there?)

No great love between Eotheod and Dwarves (like Eomer/Gimli early on).

Thengel married a woman of Gondor; Eowyn is like her grandmother.

Eomer married the daughter of Imrahil.

Rings could not enslave dwarves which frustrated Sauron.

Thorin met gandalf in Bree, which led to the events in The Hobbit.

The Dwarves and Men in the north also battled Sauron's forces at the time of the Battle of the Pelennor.

I know that jumps around a bit and skips a lot of stuff, but I was being stingy with my notetaking, I guess. ;D



Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on April 28, 2006, 08:05:39 am

You've covered the main points, Celebrian, and my time is short too, but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.



Quote:
Valor could not take away the "Gift of Men."


This is a VERY important point because it answers a major point of debate among Tolkien scholars and fans, whether or not mortals in the Undyling Lands live forever there. They do not, and Tolkien was very explicit about that. His point of view is that death is a GOOD thing, not a bad one, very different from the 21st century view, so people like to beleive that Frodo and Sam and Bilbo just go on and on, even some people who have written books and are SUPPOSED to be knowledgable. ARGH! Gets on my very last nerve! Mortals in the Undying Lands grow old and die there, though they are allowed to choose when they die, to give up their lives voluntarily. I like to imagine that Frodo and Sam chose to do that together, just one more journey for them to make together.



Quote:
Was he already a wraith when he was the King of Angmar?


Outstanding question and one I had never considered. I don't think he was a wraith until afterward. Remember that the 9 rings were given to "kings of men". That would seem to indicate that they were ALREADY kings when they received the rings. Hmmm... I can't find anything in my encyclopedias about it, but I'll check again later.


Quote:
Of the Gift of Men it says that Men are not bound to the circles of the world; "beyond them is more than memory." (Does this basically mean that they will meet again in heaven - or whatever version that takes - for eternity together?)


It certainly means they will go to Heaven. Tolkien was a devout Catholic (raised by his uncle, a Jesuit priest) and made it quite clear that men "escaped the circles of the world" to a place that was surely Heaven. Elves dwell in the Halls of Mandos, and it said that they didn't understand where men went. Elves did NOT beleive that dwarves went anywhere at all after death (or so I understand from the Silm) which made them sort of a lesser life form in elvish eyes and could have been a cause of the problems between the two groups.



Quote:
Not buried with other queens (where are they since they do not seem to be with their husbands in Minas Tirith?) and doesn't go to Rivendell (are her brothers still there?)


I don't know. Maybe she felt the need to be in a land of her people at the end. That is the way I am leaning, anyway.
It is quite interesting that of the four members of the fellowship who married (Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, and Sam) NONE are buried with their wives. You have already noted where Arwen and Aragorn are. Merry and Pippin are ultimately place on either side of Aragorn and Sam of course, is laid to rest somewhere in Valinor (hopefully at Frodo's side, where he always choose to be.)

As a wife, I'm not sure I'd like that. LOL

Great job of note taking, btw!

Can't wait to get to the Tale of Years. That's my FAVORITE part of the Appendices. It's where you get the real end of the story!

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on May 03, 2006, 02:21:55 pm

I finished the appendices a couple of days ago and haven't had time to post my comments. Not sure I have enough time for all of it now, but I'm going to at least get started. Partially by choice and partially by subject matter, I didn't take huge numbers of notes on most of it, but all together it comes out to a decent amount (most on the Tale of Years). A few of these things have come up before, but I noted them anyway. So here goes:

The Tale of Years
Second Age:
Why didn't Gil-Galad warn Celebrimbor and the smiths at Eregion about Sauron if he mistrusted him?

Nazgul appear well after the Witch-King was mentioned battling Earnur, so he was still human King at the time of the attacks. Wonder what freaked Earnur's horse out so much about him in that case?

Third Age:

Gil-Galad gave his ring to Elrond before he died.
Cirdan saw deeper than any other in Middle Earth and gave his to Gandalf knowing his task; It's the Ring of Fire to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

In 1636 the White tree dies during the Great Plague and a seedling is planted. In 2852 White tree dies but no seedling can be found so it is left standing.

It lists the births of the 3 Ring-Bearers, but not Merry and Pippin.

Aug 3018 - Gollum is in Moria and can't get out the West Gate. But, don't they see Gollum before Moria, like by Buckleberry Ferry? I thought the glowing eyes came up there or other places before Moria.

It was 2 months from the Council of Elrond until setting out.

Gandalf was dead for almost 3 weeks! Then, 3 day trance before being flown to Lorien.

This calendar includes Feb 30. ;)

The Ents were fighting in Rohan, Elves in Lorien and Mirkwood, Dwarves and Men at Erebor, while the battles were going on in the south. Three assaults on Lorien.

After the Shadow passed, Celeborn lead and Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur.

Mirkwood was renamed Wood of Greenleaves; After Galadriel left, Celeborn went to Imladris with the Sons of Elrond.

It takes Arwen 9 days from Edoras to Minas Tirith!

Saruman reaches the Shire on Bilbo and Frodo's birthday.

End of the War of the Ring on November 3.

Frodo is ill on March 13 (Shelob's sting) and October 6 (Stabbing by Witch-King).

Elanor born on March 25 (anniversary of the Ring's destruction).

Why does the 4th age start on March 25 2 years later? Not with the Ring's desctruction, crowning of the King, or the departure of the three rings, even though the last is listed as the end of the 3rd age.

October 6, Samwise returns to Bag End.

Elessar gives Sam the Star of the Dunedain.

Sept 22, Sam leaves Bag End for the last time (like Frodo left on that date for Crickhollow, etc), visits Elanor then goes oversea.

March 1 is the date of Elessar's death (as well as his birth); Merry and Pippin are set beside him in Rath Dinen.

Appendix C:
I thought it was interesting that we know that Merry had at least one son because he and Pippin leave their titles, etc to their sons when they leave the Shire for the last time, but his kids are never listed in the Tale of Years of the Family Trees.

Appendix D:
The calendar stuff is interesting, but I don't have many specific comments. I like the inclusion of idioms and such relating to dates.

They made a Festival Day for Frodo's Birthday.

Party on April 6 - For Sam's Birthday? Or the first flowering of the Golden Tree.

On November 2 the Horn of the Mark is blown in Buckland with bonfires and feasts on the anniversary of the first blowing in the Shire.

Appendix E:
At the end of words, F makes a "v" sound, so shouldn't Gandalf be pronounced Gandalv? (Not how I do it or how it is pronounced in the films.)

That's my only comment because I found the linguistic stuff rather tough going. ::)

I'm going to stop here for now. I have a series of comments on the final appendix, so I'll come back and post those when I have some time. Hopefully later today, but maybe tomorrow.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on May 03, 2006, 09:35:44 pm

I'm back to finish up with my notes and I'm double posting because the last entry was so long already. Given that this thread is likely to end pretty soon, I assume that's not too big a deal. If it is, then my sincere apologies to the mods and anyone else who is affected.

Appendix F:
"In the hearts of the Exiles the yearning for the sea was an unquiet never to be stilled; in the hearts of the Grey-elves it slumbered, but once awakened it could not be opposed." Hence, Galadriel told Legolas that if he saw the sea he would never be content again (or whatever she said).

Westron = Common Speech started in Pelargir with dealings between Men from Westernesse (Numenor) and lesser men.

The Rohirrim were from "lands between the Gladden and the Carrock." I had actually thought they were from further north than that. Not sure why. OOPS!

Wild Men of Druadan Forest and Dunlendings had their own languages.

Hobbits used Men's languages, including one akin to the Rohirrim before entering Eriador. Rohirrim holbytla means 'hole-builder.'

Sauron tried to make Black Speech the language of all who served him, but failed.

Khazad means "dwarves" in their language, which is kept secret from all other races.

Hobbits used used rustic form of Westron and 'familiar' as opposed to 'deferential' forms of reference. This made Pippin seem princely in Minas Tirith (must be high-born to speak to Denethor, et al that way).

Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn aried their speech depending on who they spoke to, because they were more learned than other characters. Aragorn, of course, was trying to disguise his origins at times so it was necessary for him.

Samwise means 'halfwise, simple' and his name was orignially Banazir.

Moria means Black Chasm in Elvish; Khazad-dum means mansion of the Khazad. Dwarrowdelf in the Common Speech means Dwarf-delving.

It is said of the elves "their dominance passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world." which is the same as the statement in Aragorn and Arwen about there being more than memory beyond the circles of the world.

King of Rohan called Hobbits 'kud-dukan' which means 'hole-dweller.'

OK. I think that's it. I have closure of a sort, but I would like to see what other people have (realistically, what Rach has ;) ) to say.

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Storyteller on May 11, 2006, 02:04:19 pm


Quote:
But, don't they see Gollum before Moria, like by Buckleberry Ferry? I thought the glowing eyes came up there or other places before Moria.


You could be right, but I never took it that way. I thoght the glowing eyes here were wood creatures, or maybe even their own fears. Both interpretations are certainly possible.


Quote:
Elanor born on March 25 (anniversary of the Ring's destruction).


DOn't you just LOVE the way Tolkien repeats dates? I HAVE to write a paper on that when I get time. Maybe that would be a good summer project... It's also great that he had the destruction of the ring and the birth of a new life on the same date.

[quote]
October 6, Samwise returns to Bag End.[/quote]
On the anniversary of the attack at Weathertop. How appropriate!



Quote:
Sept 22, Sam leaves Bag End for the last time (like Frodo left on that date for Crickhollow, etc), visits Elanor then goes oversea.


I hope everyone takes note of this. It IRRITATES ME NO END that a couple of the well thought of Tolkien encyclopedias state that Sam was the only Ringbearer who didn't sail. I mean, mistakes happen, but if you are going to call yourself an expert, READ THE ENTIRE BOOK! Tolkien is CRYSTAL CLEAR about this and in several places.


Quote:
Party on April 6 - For Sam's Birthday? Or the first flowering of the Golden Tree.

FOr Sam's birthday, probably. Few hobbits would fully appreciate the value of the mallorn tree. It was, I beleive, the only one in existance outside elvish lands. Galadriel REALLY gave Sam a wonderful gift in this, as well as the soil.


Quote:
Samwise means 'halfwise, simple' and his name was orignially Banazir.


In "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", Tolkien elaborates and clarifies this a bit. In discussing the translations and origins of Sam's name he says it means, "half, almost". TO me this seems to say that Samwise means "almost or becoming wise". That meaning is a perfect fit, since Tolkien says that Sam is the character who evolves the most over the course of the books.

Frodo means "wise by experience", also terribly appropriate. Merry means "happy" and Peregrin means "wanderer".


Quote:
Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn aried their speech depending on who they spoke to, because they were more learned than other characters. Aragorn, of course, was trying to disguise his origins at times so it was necessary for him.


I do that, too! Don't judge my writing by my emails or psots. LOL


Quote:
Hobbits used Men's languages, including one akin to the Rohirrim before entering Eriador. Rohirrim holbytla means 'hole-builder.'


It is said that the hobbits and the Rohirrim once shared territory. It's an interesting idea.

Did you notice that of all the members of the fellowship who married, not one was buried with his wife?

Aragorn was buried in Minas Tirith with Merry on one side and Pippin on the other. Sam is presumably buried on Tol Eressea, hopefully at Frodo's side.

Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Celebrian. What would we do without you?

Hugs,
Rach

Title: Re:The "LotR book reading club" discussion thread
Post by: Celebrian on May 12, 2006, 09:43:57 pm


Quote:
I thoght the glowing eyes here were wood creatures, or maybe even their own fears. Both interpretations are certainly possible.


Interesting. Because from Moria on, I think every time glowing eyes are mentioned it's Gollum (unless I'm forgetting some instances which is quite possible). Sometime I should look at it again, but not at the moment. I'm exhausted and I don't have FOTR right here.

Edit to add: OK I looked it up. On the second page of A Conspiracy Unmasked (page 97 in my book), The hobbits step off Buckleberry ferry and look back. "On the far stage, under the distant lamps, they could just make out a figure: it looked like a dark black bundle left behind. But as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as if searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps.
'What in the Shire is that?' exclaimed Merry.
'Something that is following us, 'said Frodo."

This sounds very much like Gollum to me. Maybe he lost them in the wild with Strider or when they were in Rivendell and found them again in Moria. OK This is now another new edit. Maybe he actually lost them right there because after that they headed into the Old Forest and I can't imagine that he would have been in there without Tom Bombadil knowing about it.

I think the mallorn tree would be important not because they understand the significance of its being the only one outside Elven lands, but because it replaced the Party tree which was an important landmark and because it coincided with the births of so many golden-haired children. Or something like that. But, given that Sam was mayor for so long, I think it would make sense that they'd celebrate his birthday as a holiday.


Quote:
I do that, too! Don't judge my writing by my emails or psots. LOL


Ditto. ;D


Quote:
Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Celebrian. What would we do without you?


And, I will say exactly the same to you, Rach: Thank you for the hard work you've done for this thread, Storyteller. What would we do without you? I have learned a lot from your knowledge and from things you noticed that I didn't. And, I appreciate the discussions we've had very much. :D Thank you for not leaving me to talk to myself. ;D


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