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Title: Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Raewood on July 27, 2006, 07:13:32 pm

We know this happens all the time because a few posters like to dispute with and attack other members over what should really not be a controversial issue.

The threads go along quite pleasantly until one or two people start trouble.

Instead of locking the threads why not just delete objectionable posts?

A lot of us enjoy talking happily about this and only a few make trouble. Why must everyone else be, in a sense, 'punished' for the actions of a few?

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: emilys_star on July 28, 2006, 02:16:24 am

Like you raewood. ::) your one of those people that help cause trouble yet you have the audacity to make this thread. Im glad its locked. >:(. Galderial your FACTS are way off the mark my dear. ::)

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Jo on July 28, 2006, 03:39:03 am

I would like to apologise for my involvement in this particular thread as I fear that I escalated the situation. I am very sad to hear that it has been closed.

People should be allowed to express their feelings about Elijah's relationships, even if they are pessimistic. I, personally, have no problem with free speech and opinion but I do occasionally find some of the terminology offensive. However, I would not seek to have people prevented from airing their opinions. We are not all going to agree about this, or perhaps even, many other issues.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Cristiel on July 28, 2006, 03:45:15 am

No Rae, there is no other choice but lock it. Even if we would delete posts, it would never stop. And the only thing we want is to make it stop. On top of that, people have the right to their own opinion so there's nothing to object about. We can not forbid people to have an opinion. We live in a world where there is freedom of speech. Things would be a lot better if people would not react to posts they find "objectionable". It's the discussion that follows that always lead to the thread being locked. It's nothing new.

I'm slowly starting to get sick of these repeating discussions. For as long as I'm a moderator on A&F, I had to deal with it and I really have enough. We've given people enough chances to discuss Pam in a serene way, apparently this isn't possibly.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Jo on July 28, 2006, 04:05:27 am

It clearly is my fault that this has happened so again apologies to all concerned, including to those whose remarks I found offensive. Perhaps I over-reacted. Perhaps, as I am one of the older posters, I am out of touch with what is considered acceptable these days and perhaps I am a little over-sensitive.

Taken as a whole though, it is an interesting debate on freedom of speech. If freedom of speech and opinion should encompass everything, including the offensive, objectionable remarks, it should also include any subsequent response.

I shall refrain from getting involved in future if the sort of comment that I post that escalates the situation. It is a shame as I have enjoyed being able to share my views here even with people who clearly have a different outlook on life. Apologies again.


Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Cristiel on July 28, 2006, 04:23:50 am

Apologies accepted, Jo. But I don't think you should take all the blame. There have been more people involved.

And in the case of this thread, it's both the "objectionable" remarks and the "subsequent" responses that make the thread being locked.

As for the freedom of speech, of course there are limits. But... it's very difficult to define "offensive". If I say for instance that I don't believe in God at all (just an example), people might find that offensive. But is it really? Or am I just expressing how I feel? There's a really thin line there... But there are limits, you can be sure of that, we don't allow everything.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Caz on July 28, 2006, 11:49:19 am

Oh good, a chance to say how I feel, because I was thinking about this last night.. with no reference to anyone in particular, why does a Pam/Elijah thread always result in such arguments? I just don't understand it. I just hope Elijah never saw any of these threads, either he'd brush it off and laugh or he'd be really hurt. I just don't understand all the aggravation and I find it so sad that there's all this fighting going on.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Raewood on July 28, 2006, 08:03:57 pm

The board rules clearly specify what constitutes an 'offensive post'.

http://always.ejwsites.net/YaBBSE/index.php?board=25;action=display;threadid=15027

[quote]7. RESPECT: Learn the meaning of that word. You must respect Moderators, Elijah, and other members! There will be no insulting any member of the board. You can disagree with someone's opinion, but don't belittle them and yell at them.

Be courteous to other members, and if you have a problem with one of them - address it in a PM. Please do not start fights in threads and get everyone involved.

This rule of respect is also extended to famous people (e.g. Franka Potente. Just because Elijah dated her, doesn't mean that she's evil.)

8. If you decide to make another member account to swear and attack other people under a different name - do not expect that when you get banned, you can just blame it on your brother, sister, etc. It's stupid - so don't do it. It's not hard to log out before you go off the computer.[/quote]

It seems so simple. If ANYONE breaks the above rules why not just delete the post rather than closing an entire thread?

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Cristiel on July 29, 2006, 03:22:57 am

It seems simple but it really isn't. We have warned people more than often enough if you ask me. We have directed them to the rules, deleted posts. It never stops. So no more! If a thread gets out of hand, it'll be locked. If the other mods still want to give it a try, fine by me, but I've had enough patience.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: cjhammond on July 29, 2006, 03:39:43 am

Hi all,


on 1154075030, Cristiel wrote:
As for the freedom of speech, of course there are limits. But... it's very difficult to define "offensive". If I say for instance that I don't believe in God at all (just an example), people might find that offensive. But is it really? Or am I just expressing how I feel? There's a really thin line there...


I know I'm certainly no authority here (well, concerning moderating issues at least), but I whole heartedly agree to that. Basically I think that most "fights" here at the board come from how people react in the light of a disagreement on a certain topic (and that may be as trivial as Elijah's favorite color or yet be as emotionally "important" as Elijah's meeting a woman in his private life).

I think the moderators repeatedly asked for people to consider that opposing opinions (at least in the first place) are NOT voiced to rule out every other possible opinion, but the reader who INTERPRETS it that way will (understandably but not acceptably !) reply--and often so in a way that isn't appropriate to allow freedom of speech. You know freedom of speech is a right everyone has, but being protected by "the law" (which on this board is represented by the moderators) from bullies who try to make you feel bad or downright hurt you is a right just as much. Eventually it is the decision of the moderator which "right" ways heavier, and naturally one party will always feel deprived from their right (either being silenced in a discussion or not being protected from those who offer nothing than snide remarks).

Probably the best alternative would be for some of the members to "grow up", but since we (the team working very hard to make this a fun place to be at) don't have the powers to see this wish coming true, we can do nothing but keep a constant watch on this balance of rights between users. In some cases we might rule quite differently although, on first sight, things might look pretty equal. This is because, just as in court, intent and the ability for the participating members that might have prevented the "law" being broken is taken into account. This might seem unfair, but it's a common approach in judging situations, just as in real court rooms.

Well, probably this wasn't a very instructive post, but I felt I had to say it anyway... Eventually, when it comes to ruling and making a judgment, I will always stick up for the moderators, seeing how little many people seem to care about the rules being taken seriously.

/jochen

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Raewood on July 29, 2006, 05:14:27 am

Forget it...Just forget everything.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Raewood on July 29, 2006, 05:21:13 am

I tried to delete my account but I couldn't get it to work.

Cristiel I know it will give you great pleasure.

PLEASE delete my acccount.


Let all the haters have it. I'm sure Elijah will appreciate it.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Laura on July 29, 2006, 07:44:04 am

Oh dear Rae, for your sake you need to grow up a little and accept you can't always have everything your own way.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: emilys_star on July 29, 2006, 07:58:03 am

I completely agree with jochen , rae please stop using the pam dislikers as a scapegoat thats not fair , . :P

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Misz_Mii on July 29, 2006, 08:51:55 am

I don't see the problem.

I think if you respect people, let them "dislike" Pam or "Like" her. I mean... respect their opinion... anyway, they have to be punished if it's getting outta hand, that's what I think... but don't lock the threads

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Galadriel OLC on July 29, 2006, 09:48:42 am

I am sorry that you left A+F Rae, I really liked your posts and pics always, I will miss it. :-\
I can understand what you feel :) but sometimes we have to let go. :-*

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Raewood on July 29, 2006, 07:08:18 pm

No I'm not really back. I will be deleting my account again.

I want to make clear that I have no problem with people expressing their own opinions as long as they do not attack other members.

I AM protesting the bullying, harrassment,abuse and personal attacks on myself and other members that has continually been tolerated in blatant disregard for the rules that are plainly stated right here on the forum.

All I want to see are the rules as they are stated on this forum enforced.

That's it.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: candygirl75 on July 29, 2006, 10:18:34 pm

What YOU ALL fail to see is that by acting like this, you are all in a way disrespecting Elijah. If you think he doesnt come to this site your wrong and what does he see when he gets here--this bulls**t! Arguing like a group of toddlers about rules and points of view. :'( Why make rules if certain people are able to get away with things and others not. and... Personally, I think it is quite amusing that some of you actually spend all that time on certain subjects. I would laugh my butt off if I was Elijah. This has become the Jerry Springer show at times(complete with full on chair throwing). ;D RESPECT guys! -- Each other and Elijah. After all, he is why we visit here!!! ;)

Peace

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Galadriel OLC on July 30, 2006, 06:01:38 am

[quote author=Raewood link=board=12;threadid=31072;start=15#msg1030278 date=1154214498]
No I'm not really back. I will be deleting my account again.

I want to make clear that I have no problem with people expressing their own opinions as long as they do not attack other members.

I AM protesting the bullying, harrassment,abuse and personal attacks on myself and other members that has continually been tolerated in blatant disregard for the rules that are plainly stated right here on the forum.

All I want to see are the rules as they are stated on this forum enforced.

That's it.
[/quote]

I agree with you on this.
I am really sorry that you don't see a way to continue with your membership. It is a pity and I will miss you.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Laura on July 30, 2006, 10:16:17 am

But what you fail to see is that the moderators here are just normal everyday people with lives apart from the forum who volunteer their time to help keep the forum in order, and to enjoy the rest of their spare time enjoying the discussion. When it comes to threads that cause controversy we do not have the time to spend on here 24/7 to constantly keep an eye on the arguments, so if things get heated the best solution is to just lock the thread before people get too upset.

If members would just read and keep to the rules we have here then every ones lives would be much easier. We do not have the time to keep an eye on every single thread/post to make sure members are actually obeying these rules.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2006, 04:45:04 pm

Again, I apologise as it was my over-reaction to a few comments that fuelled the debate.

I did not feel that my comments were particularly inflammatory or, in fact, that the responses from others to my comments were that bad. However, whilst I was surprised that it all got shut down so quickly, I suspect that the moderators are keen to nip situations in the bud before they go too far.

Unfortunately, as I do not come here very often, I was quite unaware of the history of these debates so perhaps I am just another in a long of line of people who have stepped in where I should have stayed out.

I would like to emphasise though that I am neither a lover or a hater of the individual in question. In fact, I have never actually committed myself to either side in the Pam debate. My only specific comment ever has been that I will give her, or anyone, the benefit of the doubt and I will 'assume' that she is a decent human being until I see evidence to the contrary.

I have only ever asked for balanced judgement and comment on the matter and, whilst I encourage and respect the variety of opinion, I do find that the manner and tone of some of these 'personal opinions' can be offensive to myself and others.

As I am about to turn 40 next year, mother of 2 and about to begin my PHd, I hope I am not considered to be one of the immature posters (..!) I am always very careful of how I address myself to anyone whose remarks seem, to me, to be immature. I have no right to sit here in this forum and be an arrogant clever clogs just because I am a grown up. However I do expect people to behave as they would in a room full of strangers - polite and respectful. Perhaps I am out of touch and missing the point that the Internet is exactly the sort of place where you can say outrageous things and get away with it because there is no accountability. Perhaps I am just old fashioned.

I am sorry if Raewood leaves. I would be sad if anyone felt that they could no longer come here, whether I agreed with their sentiments or not. I am sad also though that I will have to be cautious in future not to get involved in similar situations. It seems that, in trying to protect freedom of speech, some people are actually losing their right to it.., and, as usual, they are possibly the ones who have always tried to be balanced and respectful of others.
However, as I say, on this occasion and this topic, I can understand that the moderators are perhaps themselves a little overly cautious and undoubtedly very tired of the repetition of the same incidents.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: cjhammond on July 30, 2006, 05:27:52 pm

Hey Jo :)

As I (possibly mis-) interpreted some parts of your post being a response to what I (and maybe also others of the A+F team) said, I wanted to give another (and what I hope to be a somewhat final) comment on my behalf.


on 1154292304, Jo wrote:
I did not feel that my comments were particularly inflammatory (...) I would like to emphasise though that I am neither a lover or a hater of the individual in question. (...) I will 'assume' that she is a decent human being until I see evidence to the contrary.


I simply assume that you didn't mean to do so, but that second comment might (even if it may seem very unlikely to you at first) be taken as something very subtly saying something negative about Pam. Maybe it is the fact that I learned English as a second language (although I consider myself being skilled enough to grasp the meaning of your average conversational post), but on reading this "decent human being" part I found myself thinking that I wouldn't want to see something like that written about me. Just suppose I would write, "Well, Jo is probably a decent human being, at least until I find out otherwise." What would that make you feel like?

My point is, a perfectly "neutral" term might turn out to be most hurting for someone who asks for respect (which means sympathy and a general attitude of support). So, as long as members are not willing to approach one another in that attitude (i.e. feeling rather sympathy for another instead of neutral ignorance), I fear that fights won't stop from breaking out every here and there.


Quote:
(...) I suspect that the moderators are keen to nip situations in the bud before they go too far.


There certainly is some truth in that observation, taking into account the many incidents we have seen taking place at this board (leading to things as far as personal threats between members, even towards mods, as far as I remember correctly). In that regard, yes, we have learned our lesson and sometimes tend to take the bitter pill of depriving members from their right (!) of freedom of speech in our attempt to preventing members to go too far again. Not always, it seems, do we find the ideal way, which would allow all members to save their faces. But, honestly, that I think can't be blamed on us alone. Firstly and foremostly, I think it is every single member's responsibility to act in a way that a discussion can take place in an atmosphere where everybody can breathe without the fear of being jumped at after one disagreeing comment, and if some member fails to show that attitude, I think we not only have the right but the duty to keep such members from what seems like fulfilling their "private mission" to evangelize those who do not agree with the canon of their little "Elijah universe"...


Quote:
However I do expect people to behave as they would in a room full of strangers - polite and respectful.


And believe me, we have done and are doing our best to make this board a place of polite and respectful conversation.


Quote:
Perhaps I am out of touch and missing the point that the Internet is exactly the sort of place where you can say outrageous things and get away with it because there is no accountability. Perhaps I am just old fashioned.


I don't think so. The problem, as I perceive it, isn't based on a misjudgment of the internet as being a place without rules. I rather think that, just like in the real world, there are people who don't care about other people's feelings as much as they ask those others to care about their own feelings. This unbalanced equation sort of automatically leads to some kind of disaster. And, as unfortunately as I might even find it, I don't have the power to make people see that taking care of your next man's (or woman's) feeling will (almost always) pay off in the long term rather than trampling everything down so that your opponent will drop the subject out of fear.


Quote:
I am sad also though that I will have to be cautious in future not to get involved in similar situations.


Hmmm, I think there really is no more need to be cautious than in your daily life. Maybe trying to see what you have to say from the other side is a precaution worth considering, but I assume you're usually doing that already.


Quote:
However, as I say, on this occasion and this topic, I can understand that the moderators are perhaps themselves a little overly cautious and undoubtedly very tired of the repetition of the same incidents.


Especially the latter part of your reasoning can't be denied, I daresay.

Cheers,
/jochen

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2006, 06:30:49 pm

Jochen,

Many thanks for such a comprehensive reply but I fear that, as you say, it demonstartes one of the most tricky problems on the Internet - that of interpretation.

My attempt to describe my opinions of Pam are, as you demonstrate, open to a dozen or more interpretations. My term 'decent human being' carries no suggestion or implication of malice, negativity, suspicion or doubt. It is merely my attempt to describe someone who I know nothing about. I avoid using nice, lovely, caring as I could only base these assumptions on the fact that Elijah has chosen to go out with her and, whilst I would hope that these characteristics are true, I cannot confirm them.

What concerns me most about your reply is precisely the fact that you have interpreted the comments as possibly negative. In all the times I have commented on Pam, I have usually been 'perceived' as being firmly on the side of the Pam-lovers.

I am not a 'Pam-lover' as such but I am a Pam-supporter, in that I assume that Elijah has chosen her for a reason and so, I respect and support that decision. It is through my respect for Elijah based on the belief that he can make his own decisions that has put me on the side of the Pam-supporters. As a distant fan, I have never felt that I have the experience or knowledge to think that I know what is good for Elijah, better than he does.

I had thought that I was supportive of other posters, and respectful of those who see reason for fault in Pam. The only things I have not supported is schoolground bitchiness, unsupported allegations and those posters who comment as if they speak from experience and know what is best for Elijah and Pam.

Your comments are quite illuminating and I feel that I have a clarified interpretation of the position of moderators. For this reason, I am all the more keen not to get involved. I fear that, where I had believed that I had always spoke with reason that actually my comments are or can, be interpreted in ways that I had not expected or imagined.

Thank you very much for your insight but I do believe that I will remain an observer rather than a participant in future. To participate seems to involve walking a fine tightrope which I would prefer not to risk. I do hope that for all of you, especially the moderators, that there is no continuation of these events.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: emilys_star on July 30, 2006, 09:31:24 pm

[Jochen wrote]

I think it is every single member's responsibility to act in a way that a discussion can take place in an atmosphere where everybody can breathe without the fear of being jumped at after one disagreeing comment.,

[I wrote]

^^^^Thats how I feel Jochen and from my point of view on whats happened is someone dared to disagree with certain members here about pam and the opinions on both sides about whether they left/arrived the airport. Its funny as I have seen no disrespect here at all other than certain members not allowing another members to disagree with them. ;)

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: myFrodo on August 01, 2006, 07:32:50 pm

I wish you the best, Raewood!! You'll be missed. Everyone has the right to post an opinion in a controversial topic(talking about Ms. Pam) but it is incorrect to insult another members. Guys, do you think Lij enters to a forum like this to read comments about this woman? I don't think so. Lij is a very busy guy.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: willow-jade on August 01, 2006, 08:06:09 pm

i think locking threads that get outta hand is a good idea. some comments cause real offense to other members even if they are not meant that way, there are so many of us on here and every one has a different view and opinion and becasue of this things can get heated, no one is to blame its just the way things turn out. some are more sensitive than others and think that particular posts are aimed directly a them and thats not the case. its hard for the mods to control every thread/topic/discussion so its best to lock them up to stop people getting upset/frustrated/annoyed xxx

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: candygirl75 on August 01, 2006, 08:13:27 pm

[quote author=MyFrodo link=board=12;threadid=31072;start=15#msg1030787 date=1154475170]
Guys, do you think Lij enters to a forum like this to read comments about this woman? I don't think so. Lij is a very busy guy.
[/quote]

Not as busy as you might think! ;) Keep that in mind :) Another way to look at it--I wouldnt even want his friends or extended family to see some of the hurtful things written here.

Peace

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: emilys_star on August 02, 2006, 02:36:12 pm

^^Theres been nothing hurtful said here about elijah or pam just opinions stated. Also im sure he would respect and understand someone elses opinion when they disagree with pam. :D

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Blue Star on August 02, 2006, 06:14:09 pm

[quote author=emilys_star link=board=12;threadid=31072;start=15#msg1030910 date=1154543772]
^^Theres been nothing hurtful said here about elijah or pam just opinions stated. Also im sure he would respect and understand someone elses opinion when they disagree with pam. :D
[/quote]


I can't quote anything from that thread because it seems I can't find it (probably deleted), but I remember quite a few posts calling Pam "arrogant" and even "ugly". Those are very hurtful words. I just hope we can avoid that in the future.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: willow-jade on August 02, 2006, 06:48:51 pm

[quote author=emilys_star link=board=12;threadid=31072;start=15#msg1030910 date=1154543772]
^^Theres been nothing hurtful said here about elijah or pam just opinions stated. Also im sure he would respect and understand someone elses opinion when they disagree with pam. :D
[/quote]

there isnt in this thread honey, i didnt mean it like that i meant in the original one that was locked the arguments started becasue of the way people were interrpreting comments of others. xxx just wanted you to know what i meant xxx

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: emilys_star on August 02, 2006, 06:58:41 pm

The comment wasnt aimed at you willow. ;) so dont worry about it! ;)

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: Jo on August 03, 2006, 08:39:11 am

I hope it is appropriate for m e to share a few thoughts here;-

I really hope that previous thread wasn't locked JUST because I found some of the comments insensitive and inappropriate.

If that is the case and that was the only reason the thread was locked, then I am surprised. I have a higher opinion of the moderators and believe that they lock threads because of a certain 'tone' of the conversation, the use of words such as 'ugly' and 'arrogant', and the "I know/speak the truth and you are wrong' attitude. I was rather hoping that the moderators locked the previous thread because they could see how some of us were concerned by the direction of the conversation rather than because we had got involved.

If threads are locked because one person finds some opinions insensitive, then the right to freedom of speech and opinion is under question. Freedom of speech has to encompass both the good and the bad, the compliments and the objections and has to allow direct response and not just generalised counter-opinion.

As for Elijah reading these comments. In my personal opinion, and speaking only on behalf of myself, I should imagine that he tolerates comments about her dress sense, aware that fashion sense and style is a very personal, idiosyncratic choice.

However, I imagine that he finds comments such as 'his girlfriend is manly' or 'he can do better' as being quite insulting and hurtful. He may realise that this might happen regardless of who he is dating but I am sure he still finds them upsetting.

I hope I have not spoken out of turn here and I seek only to express my personal opinion. If anyone feels that, in expressing my personal opinion, I am potentially enflaming this conversation, I would be grateful if they would briefly say so here and I will cease my involvement. I would not wish to be the cause of another locked thread.

Title: Re:Locking 'Pam' Threads- Another choice
Post by: willow-jade on August 03, 2006, 11:33:20 am

you havent enflamed anything honey, i think some people take personal offense to odd comments. i cant remember who wrote what on that thread but i wasnt bothered by any of them. best forgotten about now, every one has an opinion at the end of the day and you cant please everyone. im way to relaxed of a person to get in a frett about posts and stuff. xxxx



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Due to the recent and continuing unrest on A&F, which resulted in conflicts, this thread will be locked indefinitely. Please read HERE (http://always.ejwsites.net/YaBBSE/index.php?board=25;action=display;threadid=31111) for further clarification on the matter.

Thank you.

The A & F Staff


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